Can we kick some real terrorist ass please?

[Whaleboy]

So are you saying that no conservative can enjoy studying and mental effort?

Nope, I am saying that those who enjoy studying and mental effort are more likely to be liberal!

Note that has nothing to do with intelligence, which can be anything from cosmological ability to being able to remember absurdly long sequences in absurdly short spaces of time. Intellectual ability is a small part of that, you can be hugely intelligent but not at all intellectual.

[Whaleboy]

i dont know anyone who doesnt distinguish between Israel and the diaspora

Birmingham "progressive" synagogue

[Drogue]

That isn't true. Firstly, your sig says that "only the intellectual are capable of liberalism", however there are some un-intellectual liberals about.

Also, intelligent and intellectual are very close. Intelligent meaning:

able to learn and understand things easily

and an intellectual meaning:

A highly educated person whose interests are studying and other activities that involve careful thinking and mental effort.

So someone can be able to learn and understand things without being highly educated or interested in anything that involves careful thinking? And Someone can be highly educated without being able to learn things easily?

[Whaleboy]

however there are some un-intellectual liberals about

Only some, and try asking them to back it up! Believe me its like getting blood out of a stone, and usually comes to either socialism or "blair is an idiot".

Also, intelligent and intellectual are very close.

The latter is the former, the former isn't the latter.

able to learn and understand things easily

I dispute that. Its way way too simplistic

A highly educated person whose interests are studying and other activities that involve careful thinking and mental effort.

Highly educated usually means something very subjective, but lets not get into that.

So someone can be able to learn and understand things without being highly educated or interested in anything that involves careful thinking?

Indeed!!

Someone can be highly educated without being able to learn things easily?

Look whose talking! jk And yes.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by elijah


Birmingham "progressive" synagogue

"Birmingham Progressive Synagogue is a constituent Synagogue of the Union of Liberal & Progressive Synagogues and is a Registered Charity.

Founded in 1935 and established in our present building since 1938, we are an integral part of the Birmingham Jewish community, while retaining our own customs and our own vitality. Since 1959 we have been licensed to hold marriages. We have probably moved closer to a more traditional atmosphere in our services since our early founding days but still adhere to the fundamental principles of Progressive Judaism, i.e. to be a living religion, ready and needing to adapt to the world in which we live. Our current membership is about 260 families.

Rabbinic Leadership

Our present Rabbi, Dr Margaret Jacobi, graduated from the Leo Baeck College in 1994 and took up her first appointment with us soon afterwards and is the first woman rabbi to serve the Synagogue since the congregation was established over sixty years ago."


sounds like a really nice place, wish I could go there.

[Dom Pedro II]

Bah, you can't determine that from the sales pitch... even Mongolia's state website has a really nice picture lay out!

[Whaleboy]

My mum is a teacher at the chedar there. I seemed to irritate the zionists there by constantly differenciating between Israel and Judaism

[lord of the mark]

LOTM hits himself on the head as he thinks - Birmingham Progressive Synagogue - BPS
BPS - Borough Park Progressive Synagogue (well BPPS, but we never used the initials) about 250 families - IE similar size - no wonder it sounds so heimedik.


LOTM waxes nostalgic.

[Whaleboy]

established in our present building since 1938

They were meant to be moved into a new place years ago! Dont know what on earth happened there! Still its better than Leicester synagogue, we left about 2 weeks after my bar mitzvah... perhaps my heated debate with the rabbi straight afterwards was a little much....

[Drogue]

Originally posted by elijah
The latter is the former, the former isn't the latter.

So your first point is not mistaken. Someone objected to you saying only intelligent people are liberals, and if intellectual is intelligent as you say here, that is what you meant too.

Originally posted by elijah
I dispute that. Its way way too simplistic

When the words don't mean what you wnat them to, change the meanings?

Originally posted by elijah
Indeed!!

How would you know that you are able to learn and understand things if you didn't do anything that involved careful thinking? Take your example of memorizing extremely long sequences of numbers. That is careful thinking. Therefore they are intellectual as well as intelligent. Indeed, earlier, you said that intellectual is intelligent, but not necessarily the other way round

Originally posted by elijah
Look whose talking! jk And yes.

How do you get highly educated if you are not able to learn things?

You admit at first that intellectual is intelligent, but then argue the other way later in your post? Seems a little illogical to me

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by elijah
My mum is a teacher at the chedar there. I seemed to irritate the zionists there by constantly differenciating between Israel and Judaism

Well if some idiot in the Guardian takes on after Israel, and one of them calls them an antisemite, and you go on about how Israel and Judaism are different, i could see them getting pissed. I probably would too, even acknowledging that SOME anti-zionists are not antisemites.

That most assuredly does NOT mean they dont understand the difference between israel and diaspora Jewry. Judaism does look forward to the eventual re-establishment of the Jews in Israel, and it is not unreasonable for Progressive Jews, who believe that Man must act for G-d, rather than wait for miracles to advance this cause. Progressive Judaism also believes that Jews are responsible for one another, and so naturally are concerned about Jews in Israel. there are MANY connections between Judaism and Israel, and most would be relevant to a Progressive congregation.

In my synagogue we pray for the well being of the US government (it is customary to pray for the national govt - i suppose over there you can be even more traditional and pray for the monarch ) that DOES not mean we dont distinguish between our synagogue and the government.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Bah, you can't determine that from the sales pitch... even Mongolia's state website has a really nice picture lay out!

Mongolia has a woman rabbi? will wonders never cease....

[lord of the mark]

I would now like to declare this thread officially threadjacked.

Discussions of who had bar mitzvah where, the distinction between American Reform and UK Progressive Judaism (and why my little Shul in Brooklyn called itself Progressive rather than Reform) and similar topics are encouraged.

[Whaleboy]

So your first point is not mistaken. Someone objected to you saying only intelligent people are liberals, and if intellectual is intelligent as you say here, that is what you meant too

No, because if we take that to mean "intelligent people are more likely to be liberal", we include stuff in intelligence that is irrelevant to the cognetive processes behind liberalism.

When the words don't mean what you wnat them to, change the meanings?

When you show me an indisputable, canonical, scientific definition of intelligence, I will be satisfied. Until then, it is a matter for debate.

How would you know that you are able to learn and understand things if you didn't do anything that involved careful thinking?

Look at schools/lessons. Students are taught stuff parrot fashion, and understand what they are taught, but because fewer actual cognetive processes are going on, they can do less stuff with it than those who are able to deduce/induce it for themselves. The latter approach may be discriminated against by the education system, but as we both know, its a damn site more flexible!

Take your example of memorizing extremely long sequences of numbers. That is careful thinking.

MemoriSing. Didn't you see my americanised spelling thread? . And no, it doesnt. In fact, the trick there is not to think about it, but to associate each occurance, say, a random card in a shuffled deck, with something abstract like a character from a story. That, and its recollection requires little thought, indeed the part of the brain that handles memory, and many other things are actually seperate from the part that is actived when meditating... the deep thought thing.

Thus

Therefore they are intellectual as well as intelligent.

is false.

Indeed, earlier, you said that intellectual is intelligent, but not necessarily the other way round

Correct, and that still stands.

How do you get highly educated if you are not able to learn things?

By remembering them parrot fashion.

You admit at first that intellectual is intelligent, but then argue the other way later in your post? Seems a little illogical to me

Intellectual is intelligent, intelligent is not necessarily intellectual. I dont see the problem with that, its a simple case of necessary vs sufficient conditions. I am not arguing the other way around, I am merely saying that other elements of "intelligent" for want of a better canonical version of that concept, are irrelevant to the only relavent element, which is intellect.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
GePap, if i go to my local Jewish Community Center, and I get blown up by a Hezbollah bomb, would that be an attack on ISRAELI interests???

You have already spoken about the connections between Israel and the diaspora. That the men who carried this atatck decide not to distinguish between the two is their issue, not mine.

I have no interest in getting into a discussion over this: suffice it to say that it remains true that Hizbullah has not attacked the US or American citizens dfirectly outside of the ME, much like Hamas hasn't. If you have facts showing otherwise, feel free to post them.