Can we kick some real terrorist ass please?

[Sarxis]

Originally posted by Jac de Molay
That's like declaring a War on Bad Thoughts or Missing Socks.

Or drugs.

[Whaleboy]

if everyone was logical there would be no war?

Seriously!! Think about it.

And please dont strawman my position

[Dom Pedro II]

Sikander... I recommend you to a book called The New Jackals by Simon Reeve written in 1998... that's where I got a large portion of this information, but by no means all... a lot of the rest of it came from a New York Time's book called Out of the Blue about September 11th.

And no, it's not like a butterfly flapping its wings. We're not talking chaos theory here. The government most certainly had a very integral role in the creation of terrorists. My father worked with the CIA for years, had family members worked FOR the CIA, knew people involved with the CIA, and so he is very familiar with CIA tactics, and they DID DO these kind of things. And if you don't believe it, then you're just plain naive.

And yes, the French got the Jackal YEARS afterwards. And that was only because they cut a deal with the country he was in at the time. Trying to remember which one, but I can't think of it off-hand. Either way, it was a matter of convenience.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
And yes, the French got the Jackal YEARS afterwards. And that was only because they cut a deal with the country he was in at the time. Trying to remember which one, but I can't think of it off-hand. Either way, it was a matter of convenience.

If "the Jackal" is another name for "Carlos" (or Illitch Ramirez Sanchez), we got him from Sudan, about 15 years after his last deed. I think we bribed the Sudanese authorities to get him, but I was under the impression that we found the information of his whereabout by ourselves.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah


Seriously!! Think about it.

And please dont strawman my position

which position?

the one where u believe in starving out the arabs until they like us.

or the one where u discount many factors of the human condition most likely leading to conclusions based on incomplete and oversimplified assumptions.

[Dom Pedro II]

It's so hard to create a conspiracy to take the place of a logical policy which is for the most part truthfully arrived at and reported. So stop trying.

You are honestly grasping at straws here... or maybe you just don't like reading. I don't know. That's your problem, not mine.

The passage you quoted in no way suggests any kind of conspiracy. It merely suggests that the USA changes interests very fast whereas other countries (Europe in particular) tend to stick with their alliances. It's not even labeling it as wrong. Sometimes quickly changing policy is a very shrewd decision, but certainly you cannot deny that such action isn't characteristic of US policy.

And if you want further proof of that, look at the 1995 insurrection against Saddam... or rather the would-be insurrection. We financed and helped train a group of rebels to overthrow Saddam and then only a few days before the rebellion was supposed to begin, Bill Clinton withdrew all US support. The rebels were quickly slaughtered thereafter and their heads were put in Baghdad on display. So if you think I'm just trying to attack the Republicans for Mid East policy, think again.

Aside from the fact that we would have been fools to allow OBL to take over Kuwait, his "30,000" Jihadists would have been defeated even more convincingly than the Iraqis were in 1991 in Kuwait.

I never said it would've been smart for the Saudis to agree to this.. and I never said bin Laden would have won. What I said was that he offered, and that was meant to support the fact that he was no fan of Saddam.

[Dom Pedro II]

Spiffor, I thought it was Sudan. I didn't want to go out on a limb and say it and then be nailed for being wrong...

Yes, well, it wasn't difficult to find out where he was. He made no attempts to go underground really. And IIRC, the trade off was part of a package deal. Sudan wanted something from France and so France agreed to give it to them in exchange for Sanchez. Can't recall what the specific terms of the agreement were though... I saw it on a History Channel program several months ago, but I'll do a little digging on that.

[Whaleboy]

which position?

We withdraw economically and socially from Arab states. They wont starve as can still help them indirectly, but a pinch in the arse associated by our absense is all that is required.

I fail to see how anger and grief should affect the way we deal with cultures/nations etc. Name those incomplete and oversimlified assumptions.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah


We withdraw economically and socially from Arab states. They wont starve as can still help them indirectly, but a pinch in the arse associated by our absense is all that is required.

I fail to see how anger and grief should affect the way we deal with cultures/nations etc. Name those incomplete and oversimlified assumptions.

wow ur trying to be pretty manipulative here if u want me to go from "only logic" to anger and grief, kinda leaving a lot outta the middle there eh captain?

and its irrelevant if u steal their money or simply give them less. all they see is u reacting to their culture and them becoming poorer. I understand this may not be "logical" but that doesn't seem to matter to the end result.

[DinoDoc]

We remove that reason for them hating us, and then leave them be as much as possible for a while, and they will stop hating us.

If this were the case, it would have been Latin American terrorists that attacked us not Arabic.

[Whaleboy]

If you called me Spock, shouldnt it be commander?

ur trying to be pretty manipulative here if u want me to go from "only logic" to anger and grief

How is that manipulative? I dont want you do to anything, you do and think what you want, I couldn't care less, I'm merely debating a point. And yes, I do think foreign and social policies should be dictated solely by logic and economics.

With regards to your last point, its a matter of spin. If you want the pull out to fail, its pretty easy. If you want it to succeed, you spin it and say "well your terrorists wanted us out, and so you have it". Of course thats not the case, but hey, a little white lie never hurt anyone.

[Whaleboy]

If this were the case, it would have been Latin American terrorists that attacked us not Arabic.

No beards! Due to elements in culture, Latin Am. terrorists would be less potent... no twisted version of jihad to throw about, no suicide bombers etc.

[Whaleboy]

no suicide bombers etc

You'd understand if you've ever watched Father Ted!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by elijah
No beards! Due to elements in culture, Latin Am. terrorists would be less potent... no twisted version of jihad to throw about, no suicide bombers etc.

If involvement with thier countries is the prime reason for terrorism as you say, Latin Americans have a more valid reason for being mad than Arabs do.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by elijah
If you called me Spock, shouldnt it be commander?



How is that manipulative? I dont want you do to anything, you do and think what you want, I couldn't care less, I'm merely debating a point. And yes, I do think foreign and social policies should be dictated solely by logic and economics.

With regards to your last point, its a matter of spin. If you want the pull out to fail, its pretty easy. If you want it to succeed, you spin it and say "well your terrorists wanted us out, and so you have it". Of course thats not the case, but hey, a little white lie never hurt anyone.

u can't get beyond the end result. ur action caused the arabs to starve. yes u can TRY to spin it. but starving ppl don't really care for that type of spin. if u understood more than logic this would be simple.