Power outage problem, de-regulation, related issues... MY THOUGHTS!

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Azazel


we still do.

Then treasure it!

The conservatives sold the peoples utility companies back to them (and pocketed the money to allow for voter friendly tax cuts) and then made the consumer (who'd 'owned' it in the first place) pay extra in bills to pay the shareholder dividends (out of the tax savings)!

And it won votes! Unbelivable!

[Elok]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Can Adam Smith or Imran explain me where the loss of reliability comes from please ? I must have missed something.

In theory, at least, the explanation's quite simple. Deregulated companies aren't required to have all the backups and precautions and crap, therefore they cut them out to save cash so that they can either sell lower and get more customers or just take the money saved and award it as a bonus. Whichever one happens, it's a bad thing, because when the quality of equipment and training inevitably affects quality of service(i.e. blackouts, explosions, CNN catches them using pigeons to man the emergency shutoff switch, etc.), they don't really have to face the consequences. Utilities by nature tend to have a local monopoly, and it's not like you can just start up a power company to take the place of another in a few days. The facilities are damnably expensive and complex. As a result, people tend to take crap from their robber barons far beyond what they would normally tolerate. I don't know for sure if that's the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Berzerker]

Sava -

If '65 and '77 blackouts were at all similar to this blackout, then I'd be concerned. But they aren't, so I won't.

The reason this one was so bad is because of government regulations creating regional "grids" which were hit by a cascading effect, along with increased populations, etc. PBS "Nova" documented a similar blackout effecting much of the same area resulting from a solar flare, the same thing happened - the cascade effect. You didn't explain how those blackouts fit into your little theory, not surprised you ducked that.

And this rant of mine isn't "anti-free market" or whatever little ignorant catch phrase you want to make up.

Really?

Power shouldn't be a market.

You contradicted yourself in the very next sentence.

At this point in our society, it's a necessity.

Food is necessary, so what?

Power should be provided WITHOUT PROFIT by whoever can do it for the highest quality at the lowest cost.

The same with every other necessity? Tell us, Sava, if you can't make a profit as a farmer, how will you expand your operation to produce more food? Just ask how everyone who provides a service will expand if they can't make any profit...

But instead, you get rich corporations seizing control of energy production... they cut jobs, they reap huge bonuses, they cut quality, they reap huge bonuses. Now how in God's green earth could you be in support of such a stupid policy?

I don't, the situation we have is because of government regulations, not the free market, always was, and will always be with ignorant demagogues showing us the way. Why do you think so much money is spent lobbying politicians? Because those politicians have control, not because they don't.

You don't know what you are talking about Berz, stick to marijuana debates and leave such discussion to people who ARE INFORMED.

Which raises another point of interest - would you blame the bulk of drug-"related" crime rates on drugs or on prohibition. The people pushing the drug war do the same thing you've done - blame the results of government intervention in the marketplace on the marketplace.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Elok
This is why the Mandate of Heaven is a superior form of government to democracy. People don't screw around when they know they'll die together with their families if they get the people mad. It's a more impressive penalty than embarassment.

ROFLOL.:P

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Food is necessary, so what?

I can't comment on the US stuff, but you can choose what food you buy and where you get it from

[Japher]

I can't comment on the US stuff, but you can choose what food you buy and where you get it from

Thus it's a deregulated necessity...

[Imran Siddiqui]

You contradicted yourself in the very next sentence.

It's Sava we are talking about here . If he didn't contradict himself in a post, I'd be concerned .

[St Leo]

The same with every other necessity? Tell us, Sava, if you can't make a profit as a farmer, how will you expand your operation to produce more food? Just ask how everyone who provides a service will expand if they can't make any profit...

There is such a thing as taxation. Service fees should cover maintenance, not expansion.

Service fees cannot replace taxation because they have nothing to do with income.

Expansion of the power system allows for a larger taxbase to exist.

This is the point where libertarians enter the discussion saying that everyone should buy personal generators and those who can't afford one should get a better job. After all, everyone can have a better job at the same time and there is no luck involved.

[Az]

Originally posted by reds4ever


Then treasure it!

The conservatives sold the peoples utility companies back to them (and pocketed the money to allow for voter friendly tax cuts) and then made the consumer (who'd 'owned' it in the first place) pay extra in bills to pay the shareholder dividends (out of the tax savings)!

And it won votes! Unbelivable!

so, what's your average price for KWh these days? I am trying to think of how well our govt. utility rates vs. the world, adjusted for geopolitical realities, and other factors.

[Sava]

I don't, the situation we have is because of government regulations, not the free market, always was, and will always be with ignorant demagogues showing us the way. Why do you think so much money is spent lobbying politicians? Because those politicians have control, not because they don't.

Sorry Berz, history proves you wrong yet again. Before the creation of government regulation, robber barons exploited the country. Then, Roosevelt championed legislation to dismantle utility monopolies, and in 1935 Congress passed the Federal Power Act, requiring the Federal Power Commission to set "just and reasonable" wholesale electricity prices. The situation we are in is because of greedy corporate profiteering types like Ken Lay and their abuses of the free market. Regulations are in place to prevent abuses. Sure, they do constrain the expansion of business in some form, but IMO they prevent market bubbles... and for a good reason... bubbles burst. People want stable utilities and not a deregulated marketplace where disasters can occur.

Which raises another point of interest - would you blame the bulk of drug-"related" crime rates on drugs or on prohibition. The people pushing the drug war do the same thing you've done - blame the results of government intervention in the marketplace on the marketplace.

The two are completely different issues that require different solutions. Your libertarian "one-size-fits-all" anarchtic approach to things is not... I repeat... NOT a good solution. Each problem needs study and solutions beneficial to America... NOT JUST KEN LAY... but the people.

In addition... this most recent blackout and the cascading effect occurred because the power companies did not comply with VOLUNTAIRY safety regulations. This is according to former Energy Secretary Bill Richardson.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Japher


Thus it's a deregulated necessity...

I mean that one company does not have a monopoly on the supply

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

You contradicted yourself in the very next sentence.

It's Sava we are talking about here . If he didn't contradict himself in a post, I'd be concerned .

No I didn't. I am not anti-free market. I believe such an economic style has its uses... in consumer goods. But too many people make the mistake of following an ideology even when it's not the right way to do things. Sorry, but the same economic system that allows McDonalds to sell hamburgers might not be the best way to ensure Americans get health-care... or... UTILITIES. I'm not opposed to Capitalism or free markets at all... I just want them applied where they are the best way of doing things. How many more power blackouts or disasters does America have to endure before you guys catch on?

[Berzerker]

Sava -

because Houston Natural Gas aka Enron, cornered the market and gained a monopoly

And how did they do that without the help of Davis and the Democrats in control? Because California doesn't have a free market in energy production and government regulations led their problem. That's why California had to seek power from out of state middlemen. Notice the words "natural gas" in that company's name? What happened to all those other energy sources California could exploit? You know, like nuclear and offshore reserves? You keep ignoring that reality and acting as if California has a free market in energy.

Btw, telling me to read an 18 page report you claim supports your position is absurd, do your own research and quote the report yourself.

[Sava]

Btw, telling me to read an 18 page report you claim supports your position is absurd, do your own research and quote the report yourself.

Sorry for trying to inform you. I'm only trying to help you NOT be an ideologically blinded libertarian.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sorry, Sava, utilities should be deregulated to get competition in. I've seen a whole HELL of a lot **** done by the government monopoly in dealing with utilities, especially the water supply. At least with competition, the people can have a choice to dump the government selected monopoly because of the crap they are doing.

As far as energy deregulation, I'm for it. California would have been much better served if it actually deregulated rather than partially did so.