Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified?

[Ned]

MtG, the Joint Chiefs did not take a position of the use of the bomb because that was a decision beyond their competence, as George Marshall stated. However, all the top commanders did not think the bomb was necessary militarily. Most were appalled at it use on civilians.

Also, most of the commanders were convinced that the Japanese would have surrendered without an invasion regardless. Some thought they would surrender even without the declaration of war by the USSR. But most were convinced that whatever hope the Japanese had were finally dashed by that declaration. After it they clearly had no hope of retaining Chinese, Manchurian or Korean possessions. They already had no hope of defeating an American blockade. The only question was how much longer would the leadership continue to permit the people to suffer.

The bomb was not necessary from a military point of view. The consensus view at the time was that is was also not necessary from a political point of view.

[MichaeltheGreat]

If George Marshall said that, he was conveniently ducking the issue. The entire point of having a chief of staff structure is to act as military advisors to the President.

They are not in the chain of command, thus it would be outside their competence to attempt to issue or block from issuance any orders given through the chain of command, but it certainly is within their competence, in fact it's the core of their very function, to act as professional military advisors to the President. Actually running the services is what you have deputy chiefs of staff, and service G1 through G4 staffs for.

Certainly the Japanese would have surrendered, at some point. The question is when. My ex-brother in law, a ten year old at the time, was training with a bamboo spear right through August, and internal Japanese propaganda was still exhorting the people to turn in any type of metal they had so it could be recycled for war production.

This was already after they'd been hit up for all the gold, silver and jewelry any of them had, and many other things, and after they were already subject to severe food shortages. On the ground level, the people were still being exhorted to fight and die for the emperor, and propagandized about the defilement they would receive from the barbarian foreigners.

It's great to speculate after the fact, and a lot of people got willies after the fact, but you'll find damn little to nothing on the record (besides Oppenheimer) who actually spoke out to those in authority against the use of it. Especially once the Russians got the bomb, there was a lot of after the fact moralizing for public consumption.

[Sava]

MtG gets it.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Certainly the Japanese would have surrendered, at some point. The question is when. My ex-brother in law, a ten year old at the time, was training with a bamboo spear right through August, and internal Japanese propaganda was still exhorting the people to turn in any type of metal they had so it could be recycled for war production.

This was already after they'd been hit up for all the gold, silver and jewelry any of them had, and many other things, and after they were already subject to severe food shortages. On the ground level, the people were still being exhorted to fight and die for the emperor, and propagandized about the defilement they would receive from the barbarian foreigners.

Now,
after all it seems only natural to me,
that Propaganda and training Civilists for the Defence of their country goes on even with talks about peace secretly going on.

Til the Point where the treaties of Capitulation de facto have been signed and there is no need to defend the country anymore.

After all it doesn´t sound to me like the WW2-Japan was a country, where such things like Capitulation where stuff to be discussed openly, but instead such things would be negotiated behind closed doors and kept secret till the end.

[MichaeltheGreat]

We're not talking training civil defense forces. We're talking training all boys from the age of ten to make mass suicide charges with bamboo spears.

At the top levels of government, there was serious talk of enforced national mass suicide, and self-destruction of the Japanese country and culture, rather than surrender. Those weren't a few isolated fanatics, they were a significant number of people in the seniormost levels of the government.

This was a country strongly influenced by Hagakure, you should read a translation of it. The training was not to fight, it was to commit mass suicide for the emperor in a "glorious" way.

This was the same country where just previously, Vice Admiral Ota Minoru and four thousand men of the IJN Okinawa district HQ committed mass suicide, and their actions weren't atypical.

[Sava]

but no MtG, they were just all innocent civies!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Sava
but no MtG, they were just all innocent civies!

They were, but too inclined to follow the leadership of the moment without question.

Great for the occupation forces, when we got to that phase, tough actually getting there.

I have uncles on each side of the family (all but one now dead) who fought them up close and personal.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
This was a country strongly influenced by Hagakure, you should read a translation of it. The training was not to fight, it was to commit mass suicide for the emperor in a "glorious" way.

This was the same country where just previously, Vice Admiral Ota Minoru and four thousand men of the IJN Okinawa district HQ committed mass suicide, and their actions weren't atypical.

I´ve got the Hagakure as well as the Book of Five Rings and likewise readings about the Bushido, so I know what you mean.

Yes, I can imagine that many within the military would be opposed to Capitulation, cause it could be understood as a loss of Face, and AFAIK after the Capitulation there were many military leaders who commited seppuku.

As for the mass suicide, I rememmber reading of a likewise case in japanese history, where a daimyo was beleagured without hope to escape and so he gathered his most fellow retainers and his family in a large hall and they all commited Seppuku, after first being relkuctant and then having some old people giving an example by being the first to commit suicide.

Now, after all it is one more reason, to have Capitulation talks (if there are any) behind closed doors and keeping them absolutely secret.

[MichaeltheGreat]

The problem is keeping them secret from the hardcore in your own government, who actually run it.

Ni Ni Roku kind of gave carte blanche to any officer who felt it was his duty to assassinate any weenie officials, and secrets are very hard to keep.

From the US point of view, we knew some people within the government were trying to negotiate, but it doesn't do any good to make a deal with them (and you certainly can't slow up the war effort if it's a ruse or not) if they say "well, gee, we can't tell the hardasses who run the country because they'll kill us straightaway" - there was no reason for the US at the time to believe any real deal was on the table.

[Ned]

MtG, here is a transcipt of two of Truman's notes from the Potsdam Conference. Three things are notable:

1) Truman was aware of the peace feelers from the Emperor of Japan;
2) Truman intended to use the bomb regardless; and
3) He had ordered the bomb to be used on purely a military target - no women and children were to be harmed.

Again, doesn't it seem very strange that Truman intended to go forward with the Bomb KNOWING that the Japanese wanted to surrender?

Second, why was the target changed from a purely military target to one of mass slaughter? Even Truman seems aware from these notes that deliberately targeting civilians is morally wrong.

"JULY 18


Ate breakfast with nephew Harry, a sergeant in the field artillery. He is a good soldier and a nice boy. They took him off Queen Elizabeth at Glasgow and flew him here. Sending him home Friday.(4 ) Went to lunch with F.M. at 1:30, walked around to British headquarters. Met at the gate by Mr. Churchill. Guard of honor drawn up. Fine body of men - Scottish Guards. Band played "Star Spangled Banner." Inspected guard and went in for lunch. P.M. and I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told F.M. of telegram from Jap emperor asking for peace.(5) Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan appears over their homeland. I shall inform Stalin about it at an opportune time.

Stalin's luncheon was a most satisfactory meeting. I invited him to come to the U.S. Told him I'd send the battleship Missouri for him if he'd come. He said he wanted to cooperate with U.S. in peace as we had cooperated in war, but it would be harder. Said he was grossly misunderstood in U.S. and I was misunderstood in Russia. I told him that we each could help to remedy that situation in our home countries and that I intended to try with all I had to do my part at home. He gave me a most cordial smile and said he would do as much in Russia.(6)

We then went to the conference and it was my job to present the ministers' proposed agenda.(7 ) There were three proposals and I banged them through in short order, much to the surprise of Mr. Churchill. Stalin was very much pleased. Churchill was too, after he had recovered. I'm not going to stay around this terrible place all summer just to listen to speeches. I'll go home to the Senate for that.
JULY 25


We met at 11:00 a.m. today. That is, Stalin, Churchill, and the U.S. president. But I had a most important session with Lord Mountbatten and General Marshall before that. We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley era, after Noah and his fabulous ark. Anyway we think we have found the way to cause a disintegration of the atom. An experiment in the New Mexican desert was startling - to put it mildly. Thirteen pounds of the explosive caused the complete disintegration of a steel tower sixty feet high, created a crater six feet deep and twelve hundred feet in diameter, knocked over a steel tower a half mile away, and knocked men down ten thousand yards away. The explosion was visible for more than two hundred miles and audible for forty miles and more.

This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10. I have told the secretary of war, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop this terrible bomb on the old capital or the new.(8) He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I'm sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler's crowd or Stalin's did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful."

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/ferrell_book/ferrell_book_chap5.htm

[Kramerman]

ned,
you said:

Again, doesn't it seem very strange that Truman intended to go forward with the Bomb KNOWING that the Japanese wanted to surrender?

MtG said:

From the US point of view, we knew some people within the government were trying to negotiate, but it doesn't do any good to make a deal with them (and you certainly can't slow up the war effort if it's a ruse or not) if they say "well, gee, we can't tell the hardasses who run the country because they'll kill us straightaway" - there was no reason for the US at the time to believe any real deal was on the table.

there you go

[Ned]

On the same day that HST made the above note, we have this from his the Chief of Staff directing the bombing of Hiroshima or three other cities. None were purely military targets. All involved civilians.

Why the discrepancy? Was Trumans note a CYA note? Or was his directive disobeyed?

July 25, 1945
To:General Carl Spaatz
Commanding General
United States Army Strategic Air Forces


1.The 509 Composite Group, 20th Air Force will deliver its first special bomb as soon as weather will permit visual bombing after about 3 August 1945 on one of the targets: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nugata and Nagasaki. To carry military and civilian scientific personnel from the War Department to observe and record the effects of the explosion of the bomb, additional aircraft will accompany the airplane carrying the bomb. The observing planes will stay several miles distant from the point of impact of the bomb.

2.Additional bombs will be delivered on the above targets as soon as made ready by the project staff. Further instructions will be issued concerning targets other than those listed above.

3.Dissemination of any and all information concerning the use of the weapon against Japan is reserved to the Secretary of War and the President of the United States. No communiques on the subject or releases of information will be issued by Commanders in the field without specific prior authority. Any news stories will be sent to the War Department for special clearance.

4.The foregoing directive is issued to you by direction and with the approval of the Secretary of War and of the Chief of Staff, USA. It is desired that you personally deliver one copy of this directive to General MacArthur and one copy to Admiral Nimitz for their information.

THOS. T. HANDY] General, G.S.C.
Acting Chief of Staff

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/ferrell_book/ferrell_book_chap6.htm

[Ned]

K, again, the contact was made by the Emperor, not some lowly unauthorized clerk. MtG's rendition of the facts does not square with the record.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
MtG, here is a transcipt of two of Truman's notes from the Potsdam Conference. Three things are notable:

1) Truman was aware of the peace feelers from the Emperor of Japan;
2) Truman intended to use the bomb regardless; and
3) He had ordered the bomb to be used on purely a military target - no women and children were to be harmed.

Again, doesn't it seem very strange that Truman intended to go forward with the Bomb KNOWING that the Japanese wanted to surrender?
[/url]

Now I know you're trolling, because I know you're not that dumb. Do you honest-to-God think Truman's shorthand note about being told by someone about a message "from the Jap emperor" meant that Hirohito himself had personally signed and sent the message? Hell, there was no way to even authenticate that if it had happened. Gee, let's hang our hat on Truman saying "from the Jap emperor" instead of being a Clintonesque lawyer "a purported message reported by the Soviets, allegedly from an unknown individual purporting to be communicating on behalf of the jap emperor that they were interested in possibly discussing peace" If that's what you've got to hang your hat on, good luck.

Hell, you should read it. Truman thinks they'll probably surrender after the bomb. Wooo, that's definite advance knowledge of the inner workings of the IJGS.

And as I've already said, the cables were "authorized" by the keeper of the Imperial seal, a glorified secretary, who had no authority or authorization from the head of the imperial household staff, who would have been the one (as only a few people were allowed to have direct contact with the emperor), who would have been the one to convey any actual order from the emperor.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
K, again, the contact was made by the Emperor, not some lowly unauthorized clerk. MtG's rendition of the facts does not square with the record.

The Japanese record is clear. They're the ones who sent the cable and know who did what. I suppose among his many talents, the emperor was a trained telegrapher who had his own private line, and he sent messages all by his lonesome all the time, and our spy in his maid's quarters told Truman that months ahead of time.

How did he sign it: "Sincerely yours, Hiro"