Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki justified?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
On the same day that HST made the above note, we have this from his the Chief of Staff directing the bombing of Hiroshima or three other cities. None were purely military targets. All involved civilians.

Identify for me any spot in Japan where a 13 or 23 kiloton bomb could be set off against "purely military target" without civilians being around.

Or are you one of these pansies who figures because an enemy hides his military assets amongst the civilian population, they're automatically exempt?

I guess you'd have to be against every military intervention or attack by the US in the 20th and 21st centuries then.

Give it up, trolls don't work when you contradict your own earlier position.

Guess you'll be voting for Boxer and that porn star who filed for the governor's race then?

Besides, why rag on Truman, who's been dead over 30 years, when you can rag on Bush, who's here now?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
On the same day that HST made the above note, we have this from his the Chief of Staff directing the bombing of Hiroshima or three other cities. None were purely military targets. All involved civilians.

Why the discrepancy? Was Trumans note a CYA note? Or was his directive disobeyed?

His directive was that we couldn't drop it on the old capital (Kyoto) or the new (Tokyo) which had a much higher density of population overall, and in terms of military targets.

[Ned]

MtG, Both Stalin and Truman said the contact was from the Emperor. No one on the Allied side suggested that it was not from the Emperor and that it was instead completely unauthorized. You cannot deny this.

Second, it is clear that Truman was moving ahead with the bomb and showed no interest whatsoever in following up with the Soviets regarding the contact. Why no interest?

I cannot name a purely military target, but clearly Truman had ordered more than just stay away from Kyoto and Tokyo.

[Proteus_MST]

Another interesting thing is,
that Truman writes, that they will give a warning prior to the Bombings and ask Japan to surrender to save Lifes.

As far as my knowledge of History goes another thing that didn´t take place, as I never read, that Japan was warned or that they have been asked to Capitulate from US-Side a few days prior to the Bombings.

[rah]

Fog of War. Hard to see things clearly during, much easier after it lifts.
I read through that entire site that was linked and remain unconvinced of many of the main points it was trying to prove. I might have lent it more credibility if it had been a bit more balanced.

[Arrian]

"Surrender, or suffer swift and absolute destruction"

I think we did send something like that.

-Arrian

[Verto]

Yeah, the United States did issue a warning to them, telling them to surrender or face horrific consequences. As we know, they refused.

And I'm seeing a lot of talk about how the Japanese were ready to surrender: what makes you think that? The Home Islands were considered sacred. As MtG said, the Japanese civilians - male and female, boy and girl - to fight an invasion. You can try to rewrite history all you like, it won't change what really happened.

[Ned]

Verto, Clearly the Japanese military was fanatical and were willing to die - for what? For the Emperor. But THAT is precisely why the only person who could force a surrender on the Japanese side was the Emperor.

So, the Emperor contacts the Soviets and Stalin officially informs Truman. And we do NOTHING!

The record is abundantly clear that Truman intended to use the bomb regardless of the peace feelers by the one man in Japan who could authorize a surrender.

Now on to more disengenuousness. Truman orders the bomb be used against a pure military target to avoid killing women and children - at least according to his notes. His Chief of Staff then orders the bombing of Hiroshima, which we know, is not a pure military target. What does this imply?

1. Truman is lying in his diary to protect his reputation.
2. Truman is stupid in that he did not understand that Hiroshima was a city filled with women and children.
3. Truman's staff disobeyed his orders.
4. All of the above.

I simply am unwilling to believe 2 or 3. Meaning that Truman is a liar - lying to his own diary to protect his reputation.

Even after the bomb dropped, Truman kept up the deception in his announcement to the American people. He said a military target had been struck. He must have known that this was a lie. His people must have fully informed him of what had happened.

What are we to think of such a man?

[Q Classic]

hold on. are you under the assumption that we like Truman?

[Arrian]

[Ned]

Here is a recording of his announcement - he says Hiroshima is a military base! F*cking liar!

http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/abomb/resources.htm

tab the resource button. Truman's speech is at the bottom of the first column.

[Ned]

No, what I am saying also is that Truman fully intended to use the bomb knowing that it would kill women and children - and he did this knowing that the Japanese would surrender if they could keep their Emperor. All this garbage about saving the lives of millions of Japanese and the US invasion force is just that, garbage.

The teachers of history since have sought to justify Truman's actions. But as the archives are opened, we learn the truth - the pure mendacity of this man.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
MtG, Both Stalin and Truman said the contact was from the Emperor. No one on the Allied side suggested that it was not from the Emperor and that it was instead completely unauthorized. You cannot deny this.

So what? It was impossible, by WW2 technology, to authenticate the originator of non-voice communications without use of code words known only to the sending and receiving parties in advance. Apparently, you're so caught up on semantics that it's an unshakeable foundation of your belief system that is someone said "from the emperor" (especially in an informal note a la Truman, who is getting third-hand information), that simply could not mean "supposedly from the emperor" or "from the emperor's office." Japanese documents have shown that the emperor did no more than listen to arguments and suggest to his stuff and the IJGS that they consult among themselves and report back to him, until after the bombs dropped.

By protocol dating back to the Heian period at least, the emperor himself rarely issued any kind of directive, even to his court or household staff because he didn't run the country anyway, and as a "god" it was beneath him to be concerned with mere human affairs. He was a symbolic head, who was subject to a rather perverse arrangement where he was a "living god" who happened to live only at the pleasure of the actual rulers.

Second, it is clear that Truman was moving ahead with the bomb and showed no interest whatsoever in following up with the Soviets regarding the contact. Why no interest?

Sure, we should have granted them a cease fire, met in Paris to negotiate the shape of the meeting table, and given them as long as they wanted, while we had millions of troops still deployed in the field (subject to death and injury on a routine basis).

I would assume we had no interest in protracted BS fun and games, of unknown authority, when we had the means in hand to finish the damn war up and be done with it.

I cannot name a purely military target, but clearly Truman had ordered more than just stay away from Kyoto and Tokyo.

Really? That's not what his own notes say.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
Here is a recording of his announcement - he says Hiroshima is a military base! F*cking liar!

http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/abomb/resources.htm

tab the resource button. Truman's speech is at the bottom of the first column.

Ever been there?

[Ned]

I'm sorry, MtG, but are you simply ignoring that the Stalin told Truman that they had received an a telegram from the Emperor. This is not intercepted communiques. Here is the exact quote from Truman's note.

"Stalin had told F.M. of telegram from Jap emperor asking for peace.(5) Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan appears over their homeland. I shall inform Stalin about it at an opportune time."