Rugby - See You In Ten!

[finbar]

Yep. And he's also the guy who was suspended during their last season for, um, doing a Tamerlin. If you get my, um, hazy drift ...

[Andydog]

It's taken a long time for me to come to appreciate Thorne's value in the AB's. Obviously he had the players respect as they all plumped for him firstly to be named and then continue as captain, even when people up and down NZ were calling for the axe to fall during less favourable times.

As a sometime-flank myself, I can appreciate Thorne's value in a team full of superstars. An unashamed work-horse, Thorne is the kind of flanker buried deep amid the ruck and mauls while often his openside will be getting all the kudos for thundering hits and tireless runs.

Calling the last three lineouts to himself was a ballsy decision that I consider a key to the match. Too often in the past the line outs had been the difference, and this time Thorne decided the buck stopped with himself, as captain. The pill was safely won, no thanks to Dave Hewitt if the rumours he twice dropped the ball are to be believed, and the game was ours.

However, in the kind of atmosphere that a World Cup final generates, more will be required of the All Blacks.

Not to write the Wallabies off (you'd be a fool to), but given the most predictable scenario that we are playing England in the final, with a great pack such that England possess, New Zealand will have to be superb with the ball in hand and make ALL of their points-scoring opportunities count. That means Spencer or whoever is putting across the kicks needs to strike at or about 75%, and we must win 90% or better of our own ball in the lineouts. Neither of those things occurred on Saturday, but having said that it was still an admirable win!

[Andydog]

The Wallabies could easily have won. What on earth Kaplan was thinking when he let Collins pilfer the ball that led to Howlett's second try? Collins was in an offside position, Kaplan was calling "Leave it Black!", and, with no change in the situation, he let Collins reach down and pick up the ball.

If I were you Finbar I'd be more pissed off at Gregan, who just stood there expecting to get the penalty rather than playing the whistle (isn't that what we all learn from an early age?).

When was the last time the saintly AB's got carded anyway? They seem to be a law unto themselves.

[Havak]

Haven't had time to read back through the last few days but just wanted to say Well done All Blacks - both trophies thoroughly deserved and nice to see them capable of a tight game as well as expansive stuff - and credit to the Wallabies for getting stuck in and gaining some salvaged pride.

Roll on the world cup.

[LDiCesare]

Rugby player out of RWC after falling off his bike...

Mmmm... Reminds me of my fly half who needed a bike to break his nose. At least, I did this on the field.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
Not to write the Wallabies off (you'd be a fool to), but given the most predictable scenario that we are playing England in the final, with a great pack such that England possess, New Zealand will have to be superb with the ball in hand and make ALL of their points-scoring opportunities count. That means Spencer or whoever is putting across the kicks needs to strike at or about 75%, and we must win 90% or better of our own ball in the lineouts. Neither of those things occurred on Saturday, but having said that it was still an admirable win!

I think that's a fair assessment of what lies ahead. Barring extraordinary improvement (or, in England's case, decline), the ABs aren't going to win a battle of the forwards. Methinks the ABs will be calling on all of their S12 experience.

One factor, though, to bear in mind. The weather. The WRC will start in warm-ish conditions, and, by the time of the final, it should be very warm. Ageing forwards beware.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog


If I were you Finbar I'd be more pissed off at Gregan, who just stood there expecting to get the penalty rather than playing the whistle (isn't that what we all learn from an early age?).

I think it was simple astonishment. Nothing had changed between Kaplan calling "Leave it Black!" and then letting Collins pick up the ball.

When was the last time the saintly AB's got carded anyway? They seem to be a law unto themselves.

It's actually a habit of Kaplan's to issue lots of dire warnings without following through.

[finbar]

So Bok halfback Louis Koen is off to Narbonne after the WRC. His guarded observations about the Boks' current style of play are interesting. Not a fan, obviously.

Oh, and an early nomination for the Coach's Spin Of The Year:

"This is not an England Second team"

- Clive Woodward's emphatic statement, re England's team to play Wales, which contains none of the players who beat Australia recently.

[Havak]

It does however contain four 2001 Lions and many of the players who beat Argentina in Argentina last summer and the Maoris earlier this year.

It also contain players back from injury like Lewis Moody and Julian White. It's a very good side and should be ample to see off Wales despite their traditional raising of the game against the English.

I'm still insanely busy at work but there are a few things I want to drop in - I'm very concerned Frozzy has been revealed as a closet s***** fan for example.

McHugh was right and should have called the ABs for offside more often. And I have to say Finbar is right about the Collins situation. It seems traditional now that for Howlett to score a try there has to be illegal play in the build up. It doesn't matter how great a score looks if it came from illegal play (to me anyway).

Also whilst they coped with a tight game againt the Wallabies very well it shows how teams can beat them - France and England will test them more in a tight game than the front row deficient Wallabies did.

Thats why it was amusing to see the label Superstars appear in the thread talking about the ABs - behind the pack the label fits well - but in the forwards you've got Jack and McCaw certainly - but the rest are nothing to write home about thats for sure (maybe that other young Flanker - Hollah?).

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
It does however contain four 2001 Lions and many of the players who beat Argentina in Argentina last summer and the Maoris earlier this year.

It also contain players back from injury like Lewis Moody and Julian White. It's a very good side and should be ample to see off Wales despite their traditional raising of the game against the English.

Translation = by definition, an England Second Team.

If Clive had spun it any harder, he'd be text-messaging sheilas.

I'm still insanely busy at work but there are a few things I want to drop in - I'm very concerned Frozzy has been revealed as a closet s***** fan for example.

Yes, well, he also thinks exercise will reduce cholesterol. Deluded chap.

And I have to say Finbar is right about the Collins situation. It seems traditional now that for Howlett to score a try there has to be illegal play in the build up. It doesn't matter how great a score looks if it came from illegal play (to me anyway).

But don't, for one moment, think that such blatant sucking up changes the fact that it's a Second XV taking on Wales!

Also whilst they coped with a tight game againt the Wallabies very well it shows how teams can beat them - France and England will test them more in a tight game than the front row deficient Wallabies did.

I think so too. Andydog summed it up pretty well.

Thats why it was amusing to see the label Superstars appear in the thread talking about the ABs - behind the pack the label fits well - but in the forwards you've got Jack and McCaw certainly - but the rest are nothing to write home about thats for sure (maybe that other young Flanker - Hollah?).

I also think the hooker is a talent. That aside, I think they're lacking in the front row and engine room.

Oh, and isn't it nice to see the site up and running. Albeit, obviously, briefly.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Yes, well, he also thinks exercise will reduce cholesterol. Deluded chap.

We would knew it if it were good for the health...

I also think the hooker is a talent.

True, though he obviously needs to learn how to throw the ball in the lineout.

That aside, I think they're lacking in the front row and engine room.

IMO the AB will learn the lesson the hard way. Rugby is a game where you have forwards and backs (aka runners), Rugby is not meant to be played with 15 runners.

Oh, and isn't it nice to see the site up and running. Albeit, obviously, briefly.

Yes it is, BTW what about your Civ3 experience Finbar?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

True, though he obviously needs to learn how to throw the ball in the lineout.

Frankly, throwing into the lineout is becoming a lost art. We don't have a reliable thrower, the ABs don't, the England hooker was erratic out here last time. I caught some of the Ireland -v- Wales match replayed last night and they were all over the place. I don't know about the French because I haven't seem them for a while. You'd think, with lifting allowed these days, it would be a snap.

IMO the AB will learn the lesson the hard way. Rugby is a game where you have forwards and backs (aka runners), Rugby is not meant to be played with 15 runners.

True.

BTW what about your Civ3 experience Finbar?

Haven't really had time to explore it any further than I did when I got it. It also isn't available in MP form for Mac, as far as I know. None of the Australian Civ players - all PC people - bother with it. They stick to Civ 2.

BTW,. how did you manage to post? The site was still down when I checked it before going to bed last night - about the time you posted! Are you crashing and resurrecting the site at your whim?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Frankly, throwing into the lineout is becoming a lost art.

And it is a shame, IMO the lineouts would be far more interesting if the referees would bother about the throws that are not straight.

BTW,. how did you manage to post? The site was still down when I checked it before going to bed last night - about the time you posted! Are you crashing and resurrecting the site at your whim?

French flair!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


And it is a shame, IMO the lineouts would be far more interesting if the referees would bother about the throws that are not straight.

Yes, we've talked about that before. The refs seem only to be able to concentrate on one aspect of the game within a match. Sometimes they police the throwing, sometimes not.

French flair!

Terrorist!

BTW, Peter Fitzsimons, the ex-Wallaby lock, now a very untalented and self-indulgent journalist, played quite a lot of club rugby in France a few years ago. Not the premier grade, more the smaller, local competition. I heard him talking about a wonderful expression the locals had, something about the players being inspired by the sound of the local church bells ringing. "Something ... la cloche .... " Are you familiar with the expression? What is it exactly?

[LDiCesare]

You'd think, with lifting allowed these days, it would be a snap.

HAha, you never threw, did you?
Here's a typical half of a hooker match (the other being scrums, which I can't discuss in a single post, and Havak would probably have more to say):

Beginning of the game. After the warm up (one ruck), a back kicks the ball out. Your turn to throw. Your locks suddenly look small, while the opponent locks look like they are giants. Despite your telling your mates a nice thing like "Abnegation 43 27 89", only the first jumper, the one you won't throw the ball to, looks like he's ready to jump. The referee looks nervous, your scrum half is shouting silly things at you the way he usually does.
You throw.
Sh*t! Not straight. There has been a sudden blast of wind. The ball nicely reaches the opponent second jumper, and the referee doesn't think it is worth whistling despite the obviously not straight throw in the bad direction.
You swear heavily and charge the maul immediately, hoping to get the ball back, but not really believing you will. You never do, after all.

Two scrums later.
This time it's one of your own backs who kicked the ball. You stay near the hooker, looking menacingly at the opponent prop who's busy preparing himself to lift a 'quintal' (100kg.) of second row meat. The ball flies. Obviously right into the hand of the said second row. Obviously not straight, but it being in the same direction as the last time, the wind blowing and the fact it doesn't show as much on a short lineout as when you throw far, or maybe because the referee is blind (I mean, he penalized your team when the opponent prop fell and collapsed the scrum last time!), he doesn't whistle. You charge the scrummy as soon as the ball gets out, but the weasel manages to get rid of it before you reach him, and the fly half is already kicking.

Now your turn to throw. The opponent first jumper obviously got the ball only because it wasn't straight. So you try again, "Rugby 79 99 21". Throw. Nice throw in the middle. For less than half of a second, you feel happy with yourself. Then you realise that the opponent jumper managed to jump in front of your own lock, and get the ball.
Sh*t. This one is lost, but only because they've got a better jumper in front. You charge the maul, noting for later that you should throw to the second jumper, because their first lock is too good.

Three scrums later.
Now your pack managed to push a maul out of the field, and apparently the opponent were holding the ball at the time. You throw on the second jumper. The ball flies nicely, the jumper jumps well, but the flanker who's supposed to lift him seems to suffer from a brain fade. When the ball reaches the place where the jumper was one fraction of a second ago, the lock has already fallen down, and the opponent seizes the ball. Damn flankers. Because they have been running along the pitch, they pretend they are exhausted and don't listen to the combination.

One scrum later.
This time, the opponent lock throws obviously not straight into the hands of his second jumper. The referee warns us that next time, he'll whistle.

Two scrums later.
Okay, so this time the referee used the whistle thing. Problem is, it was against you, not the opponent. " I had warned you to throw straight", said he. Nope, he warned them. Looking at the captain, you think it may not be a good idea to tell the ref what you think.

They kicked for a lineout, so they throw. Our second jumper catches the ball in a rare display of coordination between his lifters and him. Unfortunately, the ref whistles again because your first jumper pushed his vis-a-vis and prevented him from jumping. The fact that the ball flew more than one meter above his outstretched arms, and the fact that the opponent first jumper clearly didn't even try lifting his heavy frame from the pitch, doesn't matter.

After a few scrums and a pause in which the teams change sides, you get to throw again. This time, everything works well. The thrower (you) throws straight. The second jumper jumps high, his lifters lift him. Even more surprising, he doesn't get pushed or pulled while in the air, and the forwards manage to create a nice maul. This usually happens once or twice in a good match. You try very hard to remember this experience in order to be able to talk about it while sipping some Bowmore after the match.

The rest of the match is more of the same, except for the last lineout I depicted, which, as I mentioned, only happens once or twice for your side in a match, but much more often for the other side.