Pax Americana

[DinoDoc]

Arrian seems to have summarized your position fairly well though.

[problem_child]

Nope, I'm not a communist, although I am reasonably socialist. The whole reason why humans live together in social groups is because there are advantages to be had, I don't think there's anything wrong with being social.

Capitalism and the corporations it throws up has a place in our society, I'm no communist, I just think capitalism should be kept in it's place, it's a beast that must be caged, by the sturdy bars of responsible social government; standards, rules, regulations, not too many but enough to make sure the whole capitalism thing doesn't get carried away and start stomping people and the environment world wide.

If capitalism had things all it's own way- and now it does, in fifty years time [at the current rate] the whole world will be giant sprawling shantytowns of 'consumers' working to earn lots of money from their polluted environment that all has to be paid to the corpos for things like water and oxygen, while corporate employees toil in gated industrial complexes and the Shareholder Class lord it over everybody from atop the spires of their glittering crystal mansions.

Sounds far fetched, but something near to that is already happening in Indonesia and many parts of South and Central America

The US worked throughout the Cold War against a system that was all cage [communism], but exaggerated the expansionist ambitions of that system to justify massive military spending (again, feed those corpos).

It also spent lots of time smashing the systems that were emerging in the 'developing world' that would keep capitalism barred for the sake of social investment [like in Chile] while of course allowing a civilised amount of bars at home. And then the eighties came and Thatcher and Reagen set about smashing up the systems that kept capitalism in it's place at home too. Now we are all at the mercy of this system, and our governments are Owned by corporations, the US taxpayer has to pay huge amounts of money maintaining the corporate feeding-frenzy and global-enforcer that is the US military.

Capitalsim is the system of empires, economic empires, empires of people making money off other peoples toil, monopolising resources to the enrichment of the smallest group (reducing the most overheads gets the highest return).

Impirialism is at the heart of capitalism. I think a nation that says it's anti-imperialist yet embraces above all else a system that is all about empire-building is abit inconsistant... or perhaps 'dishonest' is the word I'm looking for.

America is deeply confused about itself man.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by problem_child
Nope, I'm not a communist,

He didn't say that.

[problem_child]

Okay, what did he mean, that I want to make a communist/capitalist thread? Not really... but you have to admit that capitalism is the 'religion of the empire'

sorry, can't seem to not do it.

[problem_child]

AMERICA IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. SATAN WAS SPAWNED FROM THE POTOMAC! DEATH TO THE IMPERIALIST PIG DOGS!

-Arrian.

Okay I think I found what you're talking about.
Yes American power-gamers have been the architects and instigators of alot of evil in the world, they are not the root of all evil but lets just say they helped industrialize it.

I do beleive there is something about the American national-political world that throws up particularly snide and imoral imperialist liers, corporate-financing perhaps? I don't beleive in Satan.

I think people like Kissinger and other war-criminals (from any country) that have been responsable for the deaths of hundreds of thousands should pay for their crimes. (which by the way is why the US is against the International War Crimes Court thing)

So, that's what I beleive, so shoot me.

[Arrian]

I didn't think your were a communist (though it is obvious you are at least socialist).

But you have a very dim view of capitalism, particularly the type America uses/pushes. Very dim.

There are many in this forum who disagree. Myself, as a matter of fact, though not as vehemently as some might. And having argued this stuff before multiple times, I don't really care to do it again.

I'm just sick and tired of the old "America is so terrible! It exploits the rest of the world! Woe is us! Everything is THEIR fault! America must be STOPPED!" line. As if the world would be just peachy without us meddling (which we certainly do). It makes me wanna puke.

Of COURSE those in power wish to keep it! Of COURSE the US government pursues an "America first" line. Of COURSE they **** up due to extreme shortsightedness - that's a fundamental problem with having politicians elected every so many years (the alternative, however...), and of COURSE there is corruption in the halls of power. Are these things good? Not really, and one can hope they change. But cut the self-righteous whine, ok?

Having said that, I very much disagree with much of past and present US government policy. I do what I can, via my voting rights, to influence it (translation: I did not vote for Bush, nor will I this time).

-Arrian

[problem_child]

Arrian, I'm not whinning self-righteous, I just think some things have to be pointed out in a loud voice.

To watch the media and listen to most people, it seems alot of lies, obscurifications and neglect-to-reportings that are put out there to make piss smell like perfume is whole-heartidly beleived.

Again I say America First is fair enough, but disguising America-First support of tyrants and then saying 'It's because we care' just happens to make me sick, and angry. Even the 3rd Reich never pretended it was out to help the Pols or raise the jewish standard of living. America stopped short of being as extreme as nazis but it's certainly sponsored the occasional genocide/invasion/purge/mass-depopulation/famine. Where does America First become unacceptable, never?

Anyway, above all I am anti-Propaganda.

[Arrian]

I just think some things have to be pointed out in a loud voice.

It's called exaggeration for effect, I believe.

I have a similar reaction to that as you do to the hypocrisy/lying of the US government when it comes to foreign policy (which also annoys the hell out of me, by the way).

It's one of the things that turns me off about the left: the exaggeration, the screeching, the whining, the hysteria...

A valid point does not need to be dressed up. At least not for someone with a spec of intelligence. In my personal opinion, the left screws itself out of the support of many reasonable, rational people due its hysterics.

-Arrian

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Arrian
In my personal opinion, the left screws itself out of the support of many reasonable, rational people due its hysterics.

-Arrian

That's certainly true.

I just wonder why rightwing hysterics seem to have a much weaker effect?

[Arrian]

Speaking for myself, hysterics of any kind turn me off - whether they be right or left.

Clearly, what one considers "hysterics" is subjective. Some of those hysterical rightwingers appear normal to people with an already rightwing mindset.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Originally posted by Spiffor
At first, Castro was nothing than an Antiyanqui guerillero. His political action was led against the Batista regime (which made of Cuba the bordello of the US), and it took much of its support from this nationalist / populist perspective. Castro also believed in a socialist economy.

However, Castro seeked the Soviet protection only after the US had turned him down. There were attempts of diplomatic rationalization, and beg for help towards the US before Castro's regimes turned to the USSR.

Spiffor, I believe our lack of support was highly related to Castro's barbarity and to his confiscation of US property without compensation. The man virtually declared war on the US.

[HershOstropoler]

"confiscation of US property without compensation"

How exactly did US companies acquire that property?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kramerman


which communists or socialists that closed their markets off to us and supported the Soviets did we support? i cant recall any. the only socialists/communists we did support were either allies and or opened their markets to us

K, we oppose them because of the war. The breakdown of trade was a consequence of the war, not the cause of the war.

[Ned]

Originally posted by problem_child
Nope, I'm not a communist, although I am reasonably socialist. The whole reason why humans live together in social groups is because there are advantages to be had, I don't think there's anything wrong with being social.

Capitalism and the corporations it throws up has a place in our society, I'm no communist, I just think capitalism should be kept in it's place, it's a beast that must be caged, by the sturdy bars of responsible social government; standards, rules, regulations, not too many but enough to make sure the whole capitalism thing doesn't get carried away and start stomping people and the environment world wide.

If capitalism had things all it's own way- and now it does, in fifty years time [at the current rate] the whole world will be giant sprawling shantytowns of 'consumers' working to earn lots of money from their polluted environment that all has to be paid to the corpos for things like water and oxygen, while corporate employees toil in gated industrial complexes and the Shareholder Class lord it over everybody from atop the spires of their glittering crystal mansions.

Sounds far fetched, but something near to that is already happening in Indonesia and many parts of South and Central America

The US worked throughout the Cold War against a system that was all cage [communism], but exaggerated the expansionist ambitions of that system to justify massive military spending (again, feed those corpos).

It also spent lots of time smashing the systems that were emerging in the 'developing world' that would keep capitalism barred for the sake of social investment [like in Chile] while of course allowing a civilised amount of bars at home. And then the eighties came and Thatcher and Reagen set about smashing up the systems that kept capitalism in it's place at home too. Now we are all at the mercy of this system, and our governments are Owned by corporations, the US taxpayer has to pay huge amounts of money maintaining the corporate feeding-frenzy and global-enforcer that is the US military.

Capitalsim is the system of empires, economic empires, empires of people making money off other peoples toil, monopolising resources to the enrichment of the smallest group (reducing the most overheads gets the highest return).

Impirialism is at the heart of capitalism. I think a nation that says it's anti-imperialist yet embraces above all else a system that is all about empire-building is abit inconsistant... or perhaps 'dishonest' is the word I'm looking for.

America is deeply confused about itself man.

problem child, you really need a dose of common sense. You cannot actually believe all this?

[Ned]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"confiscation of US property without compensation"

How exactly did US companies acquire that property?

Money?