Pax Americana

[HershOstropoler]

Bribes?

[Kramerman]

Calling the resources of somebody elses country your 'interests' doesn't make it your inherant right to grab those resources for yourself, and stamp on any local goverment that wants to use them for its own population, especially governments that were popular movements.

like...?

No, your leadership is trying to maintain their power, and the power of the friends in the oil industry and the arms industry, and all the sharholders that dwell in the top 10 percentile of American income. It's the enemies of those interests in far away countries (and stuff like that) that they are fighting against (Empires make soooo many enemies).

im not going to even bother with your conspiracy theories

You stole their property, gee, they are such communist/islamist/whateverist bastards for opposing you... how could they?

who said they couldnt oppose us? we conquered their land, they can and should be bitter about that. By nationalizing what we conquered, however, we have just as much right to oppose them, no? i cant believe you think they can oppose us but we cant oppose them.

What upsets me so much is that they keep trying to make the 3rd world a nastier place to live in. Personally I could make my home a better place to live if I bust into my neighbours home, took his stuff, and then told him if he wants it back he'd have to pay me a hundred bucks.

yes... all the US does is rape and pillage. we NEVER give support to other nations in need. we NEVER help out 3rd worl nations. shoot, all the aid sent to somalia/ethiopia.. thats just a figment of the collective american citizens' imagination, right? all the AIDS funding we give to black africa is a dream. all the money we give to cambodia/vietnam to clean up the mess we made (clearing mines, etc) is a figment.

please, the US does just as much if not more than most any other nation in helping the 3rd world. you may point out "oh, but the US only gives 1% of GDP to help, while blah country gives 3%". the 1% of the us GDP is a hell of alot more money than that 3% of country x. then you might say, "well, since the US has so much, then they should give a larger percentage, like a progressive tax bracket". well, we may have more, but we need more. we spend much, much more on the military, space exploration, just funding our massive governmenr itself, etc.

so please take your "US is just evil and does nothing but bad" crap somewhere else, cause it doesnt fly.

[HershOstropoler]

"oh, but the US only gives 1% of GDP to help"

0.1 %, rather.

[Kramerman]

IIRC, its 1%

[MrFun]

nope -- 0.995%

[HershOstropoler]

"In the second largest donor, the United States, ODA rose by 7% in real terms in 2000 without affecting the ratio of aid to national income of 0.10%."

http://www.oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/639/Development_aid_still_sluggish.html

[Kramerman]

ok, thats pure aid, not counting military aid, which the 1% figure i saw probably takes account of seeing as how much military assistance we give to countries.

note that american foreigh AID has been as high as 13% just after world war II and has gradually decreased since. lemme see if i can find the articel i read about that awhile back.

[HershOstropoler]

"ok, thats pure aid, not counting military aid, which the 1% figure i saw probably takes account"

You give 90 billion $ in military aid?

"note that american foreigh AID has been as high as 13% just after world war II"

hmmm... rough guesstimate, the Marshall plan was about 1-2 % of GDP.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Arrian
I didn't think your were a communist (though it is obvious you are at least socialist).

But you have a very dim view of capitalism, particularly the type America uses/pushes. Very dim.

There are many in this forum who disagree. Myself, as a matter of fact, though not as vehemently as some might. And having argued this stuff before multiple times, I don't really care to do it again.

I'm just sick and tired of the old "America is so terrible! It exploits the rest of the world! Woe is us! Everything is THEIR fault! America must be STOPPED!" line. As if the world would be just peachy without us meddling (which we certainly do). It makes me wanna puke.

Of COURSE those in power wish to keep it! Of COURSE the US government pursues an "America first" line. Of COURSE they **** up due to extreme shortsightedness - that's a fundamental problem with having politicians elected every so many years (the alternative, however...), and of COURSE there is corruption in the halls of power. Are these things good? Not really, and one can hope they change. But cut the self-righteous whine, ok?

Having said that, I very much disagree with much of past and present US government policy. I do what I can, via my voting rights, to influence it (translation: I did not vote for Bush, nor will I this time).

-Arrian

[Ned]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Bribes?

HO, so what if the Cuban's were corrupt? Most of the world is corrupt. Both Europe and the US had to pay bribes in order to conduct business in most of the world. Whatever land the US companies owned they paid for.

HO, does international law recognize an exception to the rule of compensation on expropriation if the land or concession was acquired through bribery, which is a required way of conducting business in most of the world?

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Ned


problem child, you really need a dose of common sense. You cannot actually believe all this?

I don't know why you think I need even more common sense then the large quantities I already maintain but yes, I do beleive it (not in a punch the air and yell like a fanatic kinda way). If you're a reasonable person you'd beleive it and be outraged too if you learned the same facts.

You probably don't know about how the US had the lacky government of one of the SA countries (I think it was Bolivia) franchise it's water to a US corpo. The corpos franchise rights made it illegal for people to even collect rainwater for their needs... as all water-consumption in that country now had to be paid for (at a cost well over the equivalent that US citizens for instance have to pay for their PROCESSED water, something like 200% over)
Luckily a movement like Mexicos Zapatistas protested loud enough to make that corporation (and it's crony governments) position untenable.

In Indonesia companies like GAP and Nike are paying their slave-children >ahem<, I mean 'workers' pennies a day to work in battery conditions making the teashirts and trainers that are sold in the West at a massive markup. The 'democratic' government of Indonesia (a major recipient of US 'aid') maintains this situation that is favourable to corporate interests, the previous evil pre-Sukarto (friend of America) government would have insisted on unreasonable demands that would have made his country less a corporate whore with higher taxes and protectionist policies to further Indonesian producers and manufacturers and other evil horrible stuff like that that is totally different if the US does it because the US is the land of the free and so on.

By the way alot of this much-vaunted US aid of yours goes to supporting foreign militaries so that they are better able to control their local populations and fight local insurgancy wars against peasants who get stepped on by the local comprador elites. Grants to attend the School of the Americas (torture, assasination, kidnap, terror etc) probably also counted as US aid. Now that educational institution has changed its name I'm sure it's all different and stuff.

Aid tends to mean when the poor and middle class of rich countries gives money to the rich and corporate-friendly elites of poor countries. It is most likely that the AIDs aid given by the US to African nations is a convenient way of giving more US taxpayers money (ear-marked to fullfill foreign-aid obligations) to US Pharmeceutical Corporations (that'd be the old US corporate interests first is perfectly reasonable type argument again). Aid is also a handy means of blackmailing countries into doing what you want, US aid always comes with strings attatched, the better to make puppet-governments dance to your tune.
Aid to foreign militaries is also useful for befriending other peoples armies with, that way you can always count on a few right-minded officers in some 3rd-world corpo-colony to know where all their shinny guns, uniforms, APCs and bombs come from, and who will be willing to throw a military coup for you against whatever local civilian government might start getting upperty, should you ever find it necessary to will it.

Still, it's very big of you to give your 'aid', what generosity you have. Actually yanks and many people in the West probably really are generous, it's a shame that even that is used hard for the all important Agenda.

by the way, look at the implications of the GATT Uruaguay Round, and the makeup and methods of the WTO (and it's unelected corpo decision-makers) these are the institutions championing the corporate agenda in the 3rd World far beyond the ability of even the US government to push (but again they are steered by predominantly US but also European/Canadian/Japanese/Australian corpos).

See how 'markets' (peoples county's and the communities therein) are being 'battered open' with the 'free market' agenda so that corporate empires can use their economy-of-scale thuggery tactics to effectively turn said populations into cash-cows (minimal overhead, minimal tax investment to develop local not-for-profit infrastructure for human services (healthcare, education etc).

If you've never been to a 3rd world country you effectively live in the Garden of Eden with absolutely no idea what goes on in the world outside the golden gates (specially if you watch CNN or FOX News for your knowledge of world events). That's why your attitude is incredulous.

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Kramerman


like...?

Like alot, long lists are boring and you would'nt beleive it anyway. Over a dozen democratically elected governments and over a dozen populist movements anyway. See if you can find out which ones why dontcha, I am tired of repeating myself. I could suggest a William Blums book Killing Hope for a really comprehensive list.

im not going to even bother with your conspiracy theories

It's incredible how you think straight forward imperialism is conspiracy, the Roman Empire was a conspiracy right? The British Empire... another conspiracy, Britain forcing China to buy opium- a conspiracy.... through time the methods powerful military/industrial-constructions have used to rule and dominate, aaaaaall mere cnspiracy.

who said they couldnt oppose us? we conquered their land, they can and should be bitter about that.

At last, some plain talking on your part. This is your position I can respect that, yu are what you are. Finally the bull is swept aside, an American mindset laid bare. So much for freedom and democracy, WE CONQUERED THEIR LAND, THEY CAN AND SHOULD BE BITTER ABOUT THAT.

By nationalizing what we conquered, however, we have just as much right to oppose them, no? i cant believe you think they can oppose us but we cant oppose them.

So no more rubbish about how they were threatening America with their evil communist vibes or whatever. No more jaw-wag about how they were against this Freedom and Democracy that you're always banging on about. Of course the French Resistance had every right to fight the German occupation, and of course the Germans had every right to have resisters executed... of course the Contras had everyright to assasinate teachers and doctors and coffee-farmers, absolutely El Salvadores military had every right to dissapear hundreds and thousands of civilians, political leaders, nuns, of course the CIA had every right to hand Sukartos military coup a long list of 'communist' and other 'undesirables' with the instructions 'We want these people removed'.

yes... all the US does is rape and pillage. we NEVER give support to other nations in need. we NEVER help out 3rd worl nations. shoot, all the aid sent to somalia/ethiopia.. thats just a figment of the collective american citizens' imagination, right? all the AIDS funding we give to black africa is a dream. all the money we give to cambodia/vietnam to clean up the mess we made (clearing mines, etc) is a figment.

please, the US does just as much if not more than most any other nation in helping the 3rd world. you may point out "oh, but the US only gives 1% of GDP to help, while blah country gives 3%". the 1% of the us GDP is a hell of alot more money than that 3% of country x. then you might say, "well, since the US has so much, then they should give a larger percentage, like a progressive tax bracket". well, we may have more, but we need more. we spend much, much more on the military, space exploration, just funding our massive governmenr itself, etc.

so please take your "US is just evil and does nothing but bad" crap somewhere else, cause it doesnt fly.

This self-rightuous rant and the arguments you anticipate that I will make in responce bares little reference to my position, see my previous post.

[problem_child]

Originally posted by Ned


Money?

Well lets see, before the whole Communist thing there was simple straight forward Invasion, then after that they started the whole backing local warlords who were interested in personal gain and power for themselves and were willing to sell out large chunks of their country in the form of mining rights and so on, just so long as they could 'wet their own personal beak', thus making them worthy of the title 'Allies against Communism'.

This later method is better for your average imperialist because neo-colonialism means that you don't get lumbered with the responsability and political exposure of running the province yourself, but you do get all the juicy rescources you can extract, while the prop-government that you install/back with your generous 'aid' (raised by the tax-payers back home) and so on gets to do the actual dirty work of oppressing and policing the asset and its population for you.

Of course should the population rise up against your friendly regime, you can just call it a communist assault on freedom (of movement of your extraction corporations) and pump in more arms and money to make sure your warlord can blood-bath their way back into absolute control.

Then lament about the need to befriend such horrible people to the rest of the world and hope that one day true democracy and human-rights or whatever will come to the region, but how you can oly do so much. Also say some stuff about how imperialism sucks but how imperialist-business ethics are good for democracy and how you're so anti-imperialism and how imperialist business-ethics are really really good for democracy etc etc etc.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned
GePap, as I said, it made no difference whether the "popular" movements against corrupt governments were "good," if they were allied with the USSR in any way, they were our enemy.

GePap, there seems to be a theme to your views: that popular communists moments were not allied with the USSR in their infancy. It is only when we showed hostility that they turned to the USSR for support.

I think this is largely nonsense. Give me even one example where this was true - and don't start with Ho Chi Minh or Mao. Ho and Mao were both exceptions because they had been American allies during WWII.

What examples can you give me of leftists regimes friendy to the Soviet Union? you have given none, as far as I can see. Facts would be nice once in a while.

The USSR did nothing to aid along the growth of movements like the sandinistas or Allende in Chile. But becuase these regimes had socialists ideas at their core, the US quickly turned against them. The Soviets were not in any position to do anything to aid people much until the late 70's. Arbez in guatemala had no connection to the Soviets. He did though wish to redistribute land and give the indian peasants land. And he was overthrown by CIA backed individuals for it.

[Kramerman]

Like alot, long lists are boring and you would'nt beleive it anyway. Over a dozen democratically elected governments and over a dozen populist movements anyway. See if you can find out which ones why dontcha, I am tired of repeating myself. I could suggest a William Blums book Killing Hope for a really comprehensive list.

no, i insist you name all the countries were we went in and stole their resources, keeping them from using there own resources, as you suggested we did countless times. you are twisting your arguements from places were we went in to and raped in pillaged, to just places were we went into and intervened. get your arguements straight, by twisting them you prove to me you are more trying to convince yourself than you are trying to convince me

It's incredible how you think straight forward imperialism is conspiracy, the Roman Empire was a conspiracy right? The British Empire... another conspiracy, Britain forcing China to buy opium- a conspiracy.... through time the methods powerful military/industrial-constructions have used to rule and dominate, aaaaaall mere cnspiracy.

its incredible you think the US is a traditional empire... im sry to burst your bubble, but the upper class of America doesnt sit around plotting who they are going to screw over next just so they can make some more proft
the roman empire, the british empire... all completely irrelevent and mostly incomparbale to the modern US.

At last, some plain talking on your part. This is your position I can respect that, yu are what you are. Finally the bull is swept aside, an American mindset laid bare. So much for freedom and democracy, WE CONQUERED THEIR LAND, THEY CAN AND SHOULD BE BITTER ABOUT THAT.

wow, what a misrepresentation of my meanings... you are obviously scrathcing and clawing at whatever you can to prove your arguemnets.
since when was a democracy not allowed to conquer land? since when did conquering instantly make one evil? cant one conquer with good intentions?

We conquered the native american lands (ie all of america). some are still bitter. many are not. they are growing rapidly now in prosperity, but many are still bitter because they were conquered. its human nature to get upset when losing, thats all i was refering to.
We conquered Cuba (from spain), we gave them the choice to become a state or become independent. some wanted to become a state, they enjoyed the things the US brought. some resented being occupied by another. some opposed us being there, we gave them independence. note that many were not bitter, only the vocal were.

we aquired the philipines, and withdrew from there as well due to the bitterness of some of being 'dominated' by foreignors. some enjoyed the fact that we built up their infrastructure, and largely stayed out of their lives (we didnt force them to follow a religion, we didnt force them to give up their traditions, etc) unlike their passed rulers, domestic and foreign.

We have conquered Iraq. you see some bitterness from many people on the street who see us as occupiers and are bitter, yet many are not. they understand that the US was in Iraq for many reasons, including securing a long term strategic supply of oil, but they are rid of a dictator and oppressive regim, and their infrastructure and governemnt were being rebuilt.

why are some of those people bitter? they all have their reasons, some legit, some not. all i was saying is that they are well within thier rights to be bitter, as we were foreigners in their land. does this make us bad? depends. does this make us evil? to people like you it does. but if people like you ran the free world, China would have invaded taiwan and god knows what else, india and pakistan would have gone to war, north korea would have invaded south korea and who knows what else. Iraq would have not only invaded quwait, but most of the middle east. israel would probably be a fiant memory.. etc, etc. If the USA didnt protect its interests, which (as ive said a thousand times before) often do compromise the US's ideals, people like you would be speaking german.

now look how much you made me write

So no more rubbish about how they were threatening America with their evil communist vibes or whatever. No more jaw-wag about how they were against this Freedom and Democracy that you're always banging on about.

do you know how to read? i will not readdress the points i have already made numerous time in this thread (and in countless others) about how we had to support bastards in order to fight our enemies your skewing and selective ignoring of my posts are on the level of master zen

This self-rightuous rant and the arguments you anticipate that I will make in responce bares little reference to my position, see my previous post.

your continual america is evil BS rants and deliberate misconstruations of my posts bare little reference to my postion as well. see my previous posts on the concepts of fighting our enemies and at times having to compromise our ideals. in the meantime i recomend you get a grip on reality. for as much as we have compromised our ideals, we have upheld them equally if not more. concidering how noble, virtuous, and stringent our ideals are, your an idiot to expect us or any nation trying to make it in this world to be consistent in them at least we TRY. again i will not repeat myself, you can reread my first post on how we try to do further our interests and ideals simultaneously and how we ignore or compromise our ideals at times.