Pax Americana

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by GePap


Srry, but the only way the Monroe doctrine worked was cause it was also in [bn]British[/b] interests. In 1820 the US could not have stopped any imperial power from taking over SA states, specially Britain. BUt Britian could keep them at bay, which was in Brisith interest cause then they could gain market share. So Latin America owes more to the UK than US until well into the 19th century.

Yes and no. By 1860, the US had a significant naval presence in the western hemisphere so that even the mighty British would have second thoughts. All in all, Africa was much easier pickings.

Even then, the US failed to keep the French adventuresrs out of Mexico, and it was the Mexicans who drove them out.

We were kinda busy with our own Civil War at the time so you can hardly blame the US. After 1865, a war-weary US sent aid to Mexico to help kick the French out.

The US meddled far far less, so the two situations are not compatible. You also ignore European meddling in Latin America and US meddling in Africa after 1945.

The whole point is that the US meddled less in Latin American. Post 1945 the Cold War significantly increased foreign activities in both the US and the USSR. Democratization took a back seat to Cold War politics.

[Dom Pedro II]

Yes and no. By 1860, the US had a significant naval presence in the western hemisphere so that even the mighty British would have second thoughts. All in all, Africa was much easier pickings.

Umm... in 1860, I think the United States had seven ships... In 1865 the situation had changed dramatically.

But regardless, he's talking about in 1820. And he's right. The British didn't want others of the Great Powers reestablishing their colonies so they backed the Monroe Doctrine. It was for this reason alone that the Europeans stayed out. Regardless of whether the United States could've done anything about it, the Europeans did not PERCEIVE the U.S. as a threat. And for a policy that never had to be backed up with war, a perception of threat is everything.

And then you consider also that both Spain and France between 1860 and 1866 openly defied the Monroe Doctrine by trying to set up new colonies or reestablish their old ones....

[GePap]

Originally posted by gunkulator


Yes and no. By 1860, the US had a significant naval presence in the western hemisphere so that even the mighty British would have second thoughts. All in all, Africa was much easier pickings.

Africa was also not made up of independent tastes founded on the European model. Notice that the only large indpendent African state of that time, Abyssinia, was relatively left alone, and it was left to the Italians to try somehting in 1896 , and lose. Oh, and US active intervention in Latin Americ is a bit bigger than you give it credit, specially in Central America, like in Nicaragua.

We were kinda busy with our own Civil War at the time so you can hardly blame the US. After 1865, a war-weary US sent aid to Mexico to help kick the French out.

Yes, help: anyone can send help. If Europeans were chomping at the mouth to get American colonies back, why did only Napoleon the II take a swipe at it? The Russians were happy getting rid of their American possesions for Cash before that. Overall, European powers were NOT much interested in remaking American Empires. As you say, Africa and the Far East were much better pickings and a whole lot simpler, even if there had been no Monroe doctrine. You forget, for example, that those states in America won their independence by their own hands..if one European power had been booted (well, two if you count the French in haiti), why go through the trouble? Don;t overestimate the significance of the Monroe donctrine.

The whole point is that the US meddled less in Latin American. Post 1945 the Cold War significantly increased foreign activities in both the US and the USSR. Democratization took a back seat to Cold War politics.

It was very active in the Carribean and Central America (Mexico as well). You forget how busy the US was in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua in the 1910'2, 20's and 30's. The US lacked the ability to do much in South America until the late 1800's when it begun to competet with entrenched British interests.

[Dom Pedro II]

GePap, don't forget that the Spanish took a shot at it to when they tried to force Santo Domingo back into colonial status in 1863-4. And there little encounters with Peru were also somewhat backed by intent to recolonize if possible.

[Panag]

hi ,

yes the US tends to get involved , so to speak off , ......



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have a nice day

[Dom Pedro II]

That's quite a list... are those all 200 + wars we've got into?

Supposedly, we've been involved in over 200 military conflicts, which given how long we've been in existence, averages a military conflict roughly every 13 months... which, for a supposedly peaceful nation is not a good track record.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well it ain't bad compared to other countries .

[Panag]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
That's quite a list... are those all 200 + wars we've got into?

Supposedly, we've been involved in over 200 military conflicts, which given how long we've been in existence, averages a military conflict roughly every 13 months... which, for a supposedly peaceful nation is not a good track record.

hi ,

nope , there are more , small scale conflicts and aide , etc , ...

that would double the list , .....

have a nice day

[Dom Pedro II]

Imran, can you come up with another Western country with ... shall we call it a Rate of Warfare greater than ours? Simply number of military conflicts divided by number of years in existence?

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by GePap


Africa was also not made up of independent tastes founded on the European model.

Neither was Latin America.

Oh, and US active intervention in Latin Americ is a bit bigger than you give it credit, specially in Central America, like in Nicaragua.

But nothing compared to what a European power of the time could have done.

Yes, help: anyone can send help. If Europeans were chomping at the mouth to get American colonies back, why did only Napoleon the II take a swipe at it?

Again, because an increasingly powerful United States promised to make it difficult.

The Russians were happy getting rid of their American possesions for Cash before that.

Because their claim was weak. America was waxing and could have eventually just taken Alaska. The Russians were lucky to get the pittance they got for so large an area.

Overall, European powers were NOT much interested in remaking American Empires. As you say, Africa and the Far East were much better pickings and a whole lot simpler, even if there had been no Monroe doctrine.

Perhaps. The Monroe Doctrine was kind of like a car alarm. Won't stop a professional thief but may make him choose another target. Just because it was not an all powerful shield does not mean that it was worthless.

You forget, for example, that those states in America won their independence by their own hands..if one European power had been booted (well, two if you count the French in haiti), why go through the trouble?

Yes, but the fact that they even considered taking on the powerful European nations at all is partly due to the American success story. Simon Bolivar himself admits that his revolutionary ideals were inspired by the United States.

It was very active in the Carribean and Central America (Mexico as well). You forget how busy the US was in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua in the 1910'2, 20's and 30's. The US lacked the ability to do much in South America until the late 1800's when it begun to competet with entrenched British interests.

You're right, but again I would hold up the US's meddling against European meddling any time.

[Dom Pedro II]

Originally posted by GePap


Africa was also not made up of independent tastes founded on the European model.

Neither was Latin America.

WWWHAAT???

If they were not independent states.... and they were not based on the European model... then what were they and who's system were they using?? The Aztecs'?

[HershOstropoler]

Europeans meddled very little in Africa until the Berlin Congress, they only controlled the coasts. The Monroe Doctrine was a dog without teeth until the 1860s.

And "Neither was Latin America" is bollocks.

[GePap]

The fact is that European meddling in the Americas run far far deeper than European meddling in Africa. The differences are many:

Afro-Eurasian diseased wiped out the majority of naitves of the Americas: in only 5 states of the Americas do natives make up a majority, or close to half (Mexico, Guatemala, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia). MOst other states are populated by mixed popuations, direct decendents of Europeans and direct decendents of Africans.
Europeans were the ones regularly struck down by African disease. Save the southern part of the continent. Europeans were never more than a small ruling caste over the masses of locals.

European rule in the Americas varied, from 400 years plus to about 200 years for toher places. In African, the bulk of the colonization took place in less than 100 years. Again, only on the Cae of Good hope, and a few isoloated trading outposst did European precense ast longer.

Europeans, by the very act of destruction, were also left to create. The oldest universities in Latin America are older than English colonies in the Americas: how many universities were Europeans setting up in their African colonies in the 1890's? Europea's actions in Africa were generally destrcutive up until the last few decades (after WW1) when they begun then to set upi the insitutions for Africa to use.

American's won their independence by force mostly, and for the whole part, aided by geography, set their own borders. This, unlike what you say, did and has allowed people in Latin America to form strong national identities and independen histories. Neither of these is true for the majority of African states, and both being true is even less likely.

[GePap]

Originally posted by gunkulator
Yes, but the fact that they even considered taking on the powerful European nations at all is partly due to the American success story. Simon Bolivar himself admits that his revolutionary ideals were inspired by the United States.

What about all the other liberators? The ther Americans also had the French example (and it was the napoleonic wars and their consequences that greatly weakened the Spanish and French positions in the new world). So yes, the ideals of the Us revolution helped in Latin America, as they did in France in 1789, but they are not a cause, and the"locals" were still the ones to do it.

[gunkulator]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
If they were not independent states.... and they were not based on the European model... then what were they and who's system were they using?? The Aztecs'?

Originally, yes. The European model was imposed on Latin America, however that model was dependent on centrallized control, which was hard to impose outside of the population centers and without a decent infrastructure. I'm also not convinced that the nationalistic "for god, king and country" attitude existed for Latin American states in the same way it existed in Europe.