Pax Americana

[Jon Miller]

Re: Pax Americana

Originally posted by problem_child
Is it a good thing or a bad thing that the Project for a New American Century is all about America taking over the world? Do you think that American dominance world wide will make the Earth a better place to live... or is it something to be feared and avoided at all costs.

I of course have my own strong opinions on the matter, I'm sure you can guess what they are, but I am curious what American people think about their states designs for the futures of all nations (come to think of it I'm curious as to why the US public seems to buy the world-veiw it's fed). I know alot of Americans realy don't care what foreigners think of their country, but is that because they heartily agree with US foreign policy [America First stamp on the rest] or because they honeslty think US foreign policy is essentially benevolent...

If this thread just gets closed, that'll certainly do as an answer too I suppose. But I'm not just trolling, I really do want to know. In the UK alot of people just turn their brains off with the attitude
'I'll leave decisions like that [going to war etc] to my betters to decide, far be it for me to second guess the government, they know what they're doing, and they're doing it for our sake' which I think is a pretty negligent attitude for voters in a 'democracy' to take.

of course it should ber america first?

who else should america put first, saudi arabia

but of course, other nations should resist any attempts by the US to rule the world (and the US shouldn't..., but will if all other nations just roll over and bare their throats)

Jon Miller

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Oerdin:

You can claim some cause there, but rarely a direct link.

How about France?

"A large part of the reason all of Latin America" - What exactly did the US do to promote democracy there?

We kept you out. While Europe was quickly gobbling up most of Asia and Africa, The US provided a shield against European colonialsm in Latin America. Simon Bolivar tried to model South America on the United States.

In any case, what has YOUR country done to promote democracy?

[Meldor]

BTW just so there is no misunderstanding. They people Sava is so upset about "set up" the think tank. The people who actually run it are as follows:

Project Directors
William Kristol, Chairman
Robert Kagan
Bruce P. Jackson
Lewis E. Lehrman
Mark Gerson
Randy Scheunemann

Project Staff
Gary Schmitt, Executive Director
Daniel McKivergan, Deputy Director
Ellen Bork, Deputy Director
Thomas Donnelly, Senior Fellow
Reuel Marc Gerecht, Senior Fellow, Director of the Middle East Initiative
Christopher Maletz, Assistant Director


If you don't recognize any of these people from teh current administration don't be suprised (unless you are Sava).

[HershOstropoler]

gunkulator:

"How about France?"

No issue about Europe and Japan in/post WWII. The issue is the 3rd world.

"We kept you out. While Europe was quickly gobbling up most of Asia and Africa, The US provided a shield against European colonialsm in Latin America. Simon Bolivar tried to model South America on the United States."

Whom did you keep out? The spanish (and portuguese, though under different circumstances) had just lost it, and few powers had an appetite to redo the 20 year wars of independence that the spanish lost. Also, had the brits wanted a piece of it, you would have been barely in a position to stop them.

"In any case, what has YOUR country done to promote democracy?"

What has my country done to prop up dictators, apart from exporting a guy to become one in Germany? After 1918 it was simply too small to do much either way. Before that... well, what has the US to show? The 1917 intervention against constitutional monarchies on behalf of a bunch of colonial powers that held several 100 million people under colonial yoke?

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by gunkulator
In any case, what has YOUR country done to promote democracy?

What a loaded question.

He hides behind that Europa banner, but he's from Austria, long a bastion of freedom and democracy!

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler

As an old german proverb says: "Können vor Lachen."

you also had some other ones to the tune of "Deustchland über alles", "arbiet macht frei", and "ein volk. ein reich. ein fuhrer".

[Chris 62]

Now now, Hitler was leading Germany at the time, he was only born in Austria, let's be real.

[HershOstropoler]

Nope, we had "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser...."

[Sava]

Originally posted by Meldor
BTW just so there is no misunderstanding. They people Sava is so upset about "set up" the think tank. The people who actually run it are as follows:

Project Directors
William Kristol, Chairman
Robert Kagan
Bruce P. Jackson
Lewis E. Lehrman
Mark Gerson
Randy Scheunemann

Project Staff
Gary Schmitt, Executive Director
Daniel McKivergan, Deputy Director
Ellen Bork, Deputy Director
Thomas Donnelly, Senior Fellow
Reuel Marc Gerecht, Senior Fellow, Director of the Middle East Initiative
Christopher Maletz, Assistant Director


If you don't recognize any of these people from teh current administration don't be suprised (unless you are Sava).

Does it suck being wrong?

PNAC was founded in 1997 and is headed by project directors William
Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard, Robert Kagan, senior associate
at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, contributing editor
at the Weekly Standard and columnist for the Washington Post, and
Bruce Jackson, a long-time Lockheed Martin executive who recently left
the corporation to work full time on military policy issues. Its
statement of principles recalls "the Reagan Administration's success"
and urges a return to a "military that is strong and ready to meet
both present and future challenges." PNAC's founding document was
signed by Paul Wolfowitz, **** Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and numerous
others who have gone on to become major players in the Bush national
security team. Defense contractor Lockheed Martin recently hired
PNAC's deputy director and principal author of the report, Thomas
Donnelly

http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03jan-feb/jan-feb03corp2.html

The Military-Industrial-Think Tank Complex
Corporate Think Tanks and the
Doctrine of Aggressive Militarism

By William Hartung and Michelle Ciarrocca

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Now now, Hitler was leading Germany at the time, he was only born in Austria, let's be real.

nearly all of europe was german at one time or another

[Kramerman]

There are many nations, [over 70] that have been subjected to this kind of thing, which is why I just can't seem to shut-up about it, no argument justifies it, you can't wash it into being in anyway moral or good, it's just capitalist-agenda power-freakery, so I really don't get how the sponsor of this is somehow transformed into the nation that loves freedom and democracy.

during the cold war, it was either those nations were a bastradly capitalist country, or a bastardly communist. If we didint support them, the soviets would have and they would have become communist... which means another closed market. So we had a choice. Support the bastards adn be friends, or not support them and be enemies... most of those basards would have been there either way. you cant blame the US on that fact, no matter how hard you try

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Uber KruX nearly all of europe was german at one time or another

It might interest you to know Austria was a dictatorship under Kurt von Schuschnigg before Hitler took over.

Ol Kurt never met an election he liked (or didn't try to rig).

[Sava]

Ol Kurt never met an election he liked (or didn't try to rig).

Sounds like he'd be perfect for the Bush/Cheney 2004 campaign.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Uber KruX


you also had some other ones to the tune of "Deustchland über alles", "arbiet macht frei", and "ein volk. ein reich. ein fuhrer".

*wipes tears from eyes*

that was good uber. i guess it just caught me by suprise

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Whom did you keep out? The spanish (and portuguese, though under different circumstances) had just lost it, and few powers had an appetite to redo the 20 year wars of independence that the spanish lost. Also, had the brits wanted a piece of it, you would have been barely in a position to stop them.

Sure, but we made it clear that we'd put up a fight. So instead of colonizing South America, the Brits picked on the relatively easier Africans. Without the United States, Latin America would have been just more easy pickings for the Brits.

What has my country done to prop up dictators, apart from exporting a guy to become one in Germany?

kinda a big one there...

After 1918 it was simply too small to do much either way. Before that... well, what has the US to show? The 1917 intervention against constitutional monarchies on behalf of a bunch of colonial powers that held several 100 million people under colonial yoke?

Actually, America's greatest gift to the world may have been our LACK of action in WWI. Instead of rushing in to support one imperialistic power or the other, we let you guys foolishly spend all your money and power beating each other up. Helped put an end to Europe's monarchies.