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Duh. That's an extremely lose standard. Also, what has it to do with a "missionary zeal for democracy and freedoms"? The US was happily cooperating with the KMT regime in Taiwan and SK's military rulers.
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Well, I was just following problem child's notion that the US is the prime mover for everything that happens in the world. Apparently for him we were taking the long view with the KMT and SK's military rulers.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891 -
By that standard, you're also responsible for mainland China becoming communist.
The US is not to blame for every tinpot dictator, but you supported a lot of them, for whatever reasons, while the zeal for democracy and freedom is nowhere to be found in your dealings with the 3rd world - or do you have an example?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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It is interesting that in the few short years since the end of the cold war that those of you who most likely don't remember it have all forgotten that it occurred. That a lot of the stuff you want to blame on the US was done by both sides. Of course to the victor goes the blame....
I do find it humorous how often a simple think tank like PNAC can come up as being sited as proof of the new American imperialism. You would think that some new evidence would emirge, not just rehashing of the same old stuff.Comment
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"That a lot of the stuff you want to blame on the US was done by both sides."
True. But it is equally revisionist to proclaim some zeal for democracy and freedom policy.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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dpLast edited by HershOstropoler; August 4, 2003, 14:10.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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The people who run this "simple think tank", run our country. Perhaps one day you'll stop being so naive and realize how the world works.I do find it humorous how often a simple think tank like PNAC can come up as being sited as proof of the new American imperialism. You would think that some new evidence would emirge, not just rehashing of the same old stuff.To us, it is the BEAST.Comment
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That's your strawman. I, for one, won't bite. Most people realize that a lot of nastiness went on during the Cold War. Had Germany or France been in the US's position after WWII, I sincerely doubt you would have acted all that much nobler.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
True. But it is equally revisionist to proclaim some zeal for democracy and freedom policy.
It is frustrating as an American that unless we are constantly and profusely apologizing for all the world's evils that we are taken to be right-wing Bu****e imperialists.Comment
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"That's your strawman."
Nope, that's what Dan said.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Actually, Dan was pointing out that it's a mixed bag of self-interest and desire for democracy. Most Americans, and I would hope Euros, believe in democracy as fundamentally the best choice amongst gov'ts. To claim that it is our only motivation is as much a strawman as to claim that it plays no part at all.Comment
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Hmm...
There was no other motivation mentioned. Or did you mean that as an explanation for why Americans are happy with their record? Doesn't make much sense to me either.It's missionary zeal for democracy and freedoms. You may point out all of the bad, but to me it's a mixed bag. There are a lot of successes in there too.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Hershey: The American government has been pushing for democracy in the rest of the world at least since the Monroe doctrine was proclaimed in the early 19th century. Sure, that push has been inconsistant and sometimes it took a back seat to political realities or the economic cronnism of office holders but it's always been there. A large part of the reason all of Latin America except Cuba (and possibly Venezuela) are now democracies is because of the actions of the US and the same can be said for places like Germany, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the Philippines.
The march to stable democracies is never a straight line and, yes, mistakes are always made but on balance the US has done more good then bad and more good then anyone else in the world.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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Oerdin:
You can claim some cause there, but rarely a direct link.
"A large part of the reason all of Latin America" - What exactly did the US do to promote democracy there?
"Germany, Japan" - Yes.
"South Korea, Taiwan" - Very, very very indirectly.
"Philippines" - what exactly did the US do to topple Marcos?“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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In problem child's eyes, communist China is a good thing. So we can't be responsible for that.By that standard, you're also responsible for mainland China becoming communist.
I have plenty of examples.The US is not to blame for every tinpot dictator, but you supported a lot of them, for whatever reasons, while the zeal for democracy and freedom is nowhere to be found in your dealings with the 3rd world - or do you have an example?
Burma, Cuba, Venezuela. Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, Zimbabwe.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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"Burma, Cuba, Venezuela. Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, Zimbabwe."
Where democracy is always used when you don't like the regime for other reasons. Your concern for democracy in Venezuela has a lot to do with not liking Chavez. Same for Iraq or Syria, while oppression in Egypt and Pakistan is a-ok.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Darn, I can read names as well as you can. Show me were those people (with the exception of Mr. Wolfowitz) contributed anything more than their name to the site.Originally posted by Sava
The people who run this "simple think tank", run our country. Perhaps one day you'll stop being so naive and realize how the world works.
Setting up think tanks and getting advise (papers) from them, doesn't make all of the things that come out of them your policy. Their are a lot of think tanks supported by all manner of people high up in both parties. That doesn't mean the papers coming out of them are anything more than "what ifs" and possible strategies.
I am not naive, that is why I am a Republican. I gave up my youth inspired Democratic socialist tendicies not to long after I got out of college and had to work for a living. Trying to insult me won't win your point.Comment
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