Bush coddles Castro, betrays liberty

[Velociryx]

Do you guys think the economic argument really helps your case?

Mystifying.

The governments are responsible for the policies of those nations. Policies which keep their people in perpetual poverty. It's not as quick a death as a death squad armed with automatic weapons, no, but it's every bit as oppressive as certain. Death in slow motion, or a bullet to the back of the head. Both kinds are handed out by governments that obviously don't have their people's interests at heart.

But yeah, let's just say that they're all trying to come over here to work at 7-11, and ignore the reasons behind that decision. That way, you'll be able to sleep better tonight....

-=Vel=-

And for the record, the ground we're covering here has strayed far, far from my initial points, stated an exhausting number of times above.

[GePap]

The governments are responsible for the policies of those nations. Policies which keep their people in perpetual poverty. It's not as quick a death as a death squad armed with automatic weapons, no, but it's every bit as oppressive as certain. Death in slow motion, or a bullet to the back of the head. Both kinds are handed out by governments that obviously don't have their people's interests at heart.

Well, the Mexicas are obviously as much political refugees as Cubans, since they suffer form the econopmic mismanagement of their rulers, and ditto all the countless poor outside. Will you then back equal treatment for said Mexicans?

[Velociryx]

GePap: The point of my discussion has been, from the get go, that IF the liberty message being spouted by the administration is to have any merit, then let's start acting the part, and not do so just when it is convenient.

And in those cases, yes. Absolutely. Or, if it's a lie, then I'd like the administration to pony up and say as much. All this talk about taking "responsibility" Yeah.

-=Vel=-

[Sava]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Here's the problem, in my mind. I do support open borders, however, to me it's sickening that letting these people in will allow them to take advantage of my money in the form of welfare and other social programs.

Once we eliminate those, I'll be all for open borders - but I imagine that without social programs, less people will want to come in. Oh well, that doesn't concern me too much.

Taking advantage? oh yeah, those greedy bastards!!! they want their children to be healthy and educated... THOSE GREEDY ****S ARE STEALING YOUR MONEY!

[David Floyd]

Yes, they certainly are. Cuba has lots of social programs - if that's what they want, they should stay there. If the want to come to the US, I fully support that, with the caveat that the US is about liberty, and liberty does not include taking my money for social programs.

[Ned]

Meldor, thank you for the news article on the update on the 12 refugees. I know you highlighted this section stating that Castro had done nothing yet the 12 refugees, but, as Vel pointed out earlier, you seem to ignore the apparent fact that these 12 would never be employed in Cuba again. Couple this with the requirement, also stated in the article, that Cubans need an "exit" visa in order to get out of Cuba and that Castro does not grant exit visas to boat people, the combination is devastating to the 12 refugees. Your apparent unconcern with the fate of the 12 and continued defense of the Castro régime is appalling.

I also find appalling the attitude of the US mission in Cuba. They stated that there is some question whether to grant the 12 political asylum under the circumstances. What?!

Meldor, I also find a curious that you equate the Cuban and American laws criminalizing the opposition to the government. In Cuba, that opposition can be the form of free speech or an effort to form a political party. In United States, this opposition has to be more in the form of an armed revolution before it becomes criminal. To even suggest that the two are equivalent shows that you have no love of liberty and would be quite content to live in a land, such as Cuba, that has no political freedom or free speech.

Now as to George Bush, I also agree with Vel that his apparent lack of concern with the liberation of the people Cuba shows us that he is not truly dedicated to the liberation of the people of Iraq. George Bush is no Ronald Reagan, who, I believe, truly believed in liberty.

I don't know who George Bush is anymore. However I can say that this event has so alienated me from him that I doubt that I would vote for him again.

Finally, why is there all this debate on what we, the United States, must do in order to normalize our relations with Cuba? So long as Cuba remains communist and denies its people essential liberties, I believe United States must remain extremely hostile to the Castro régime. They need to reform fundamentally before we can normalize relations.

[Ned]

Can I ask a question of the people who are defending the actions of the Bush regime here, is it your position that we should close our borders to all refugees, or only refugees from Cuba?

[Ned]

Also, is there any other Latin American country that requires emmigration visas?

[Japher]

Can I ask a question of the people who are defending the actions of the Bush regime here, is it your position that we should close our borders to all refugees, or only refugees from Cuba?

Personally, I say all who don't bother to go through the proper channels (and I don't mean water ways). I really am sick and tired of people coming into this country illegally and then demanding (in a foreign tongue) to become a citizen.

My future sister-in-law has been here on a work visa for 15 years, and she is trying to get her green card, but that has been impossible, and she has been trying for 2 years. Yet, for some reason this country allows a mexican or cuban to waltz right in, collect a green card, $200, and sit on their lazy butts for the rest of their lives....

So, close the bored, and let them apply.

[Japher]

Edit: DP

[Ned]

Originally posted by Japher


Personally, I say all who don't bother to go through the proper channels (and I don't mean water ways). I really am sick and tired of people coming into this country illegally and then demanding (in a foreign tongue) to become a citizen.

My future sister-in-law has been here on a work visa for 15 years, and she is trying to get her green card, but that has been impossible, and she has been trying for 2 years. Yet, for some reason this country allows a mexican or cuban to waltz right in, collect a green card, $200, and sit on their lazy butts for the rest of their lives....

So, close the bored, and let them apply.

Japher, the point I am trying to make is that with most countries, one only has to apply to the United States to obtain immigration documents. In the case of Cuba, one also has to apply for an emmigration visa. So, generally, a Cuban has no "regular" channels to go through in order to emmigrate to the US. They must flee Cuba.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ned
Finally, why is there all this debate on what we, the United States, must do in order to normalize our relations with Cuba?

Becuase we trade quite openly and happily with the Chinese and people are curious how Castro is so much worse than they are when it comes to respecting human rights?

[Ned]

More political freedom in Cuba:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6422821.htm

If the Bush regime turns these refugees back, I may even consider voting Democrat.

[Ned]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Becuase we trade quite openly and happily with the Chinese and people are curious how Castro is so much worse than they are when it comes to respecting human rights?

All this shows is that we are rewarding China for its steps toward liberty.

[Japher]

The point I am making is that I have no problem with immigration just as long as they aren't coming in to be taken care of.

I would love to see them collect every Cuban that has found the current, interview them on their skills, and then either accept or deny them entry.

I also think that Immigrants should be denied social benefits for a certain amount of time upon entering the country. Give 'em unemployment, but no welfare. I know this may create some problems at first, but at least we won't have people coming here to abuse the system, instead of take advantage of it.