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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
If the best thing you can come up with happened a century and a half ago then I feel I win this debate by default.
There is no comparision to the US's human rights record to China's or Libya's or Zimbabwe's.
Louima and Diallou were a few years ago (and just the worst cases of NYC police misconduct - a certain stun grenade incident is a mere few weeks old). Native Americans have been screwed up to the present day (although now we are only cheating them out of money and taking their kids away - much better than the small pox blankets). Then there's the death penalty which puts us in the same distinguished club as some of the worst violators. Don't forget the report released by the inspector general at Justice about how well detainees were treated (detainees I might add who were hald for standing while arab). Seen Jose Padilla anywhere but on a milk carton?
Again, we're not in the same league as the worst offenders - but we're not Canada or Scandinavia either.
The slave thing was just to illustrate that the US has never had a particularly good record. In fact, the **** we did in the 19th century would have been considered crimes against humanity in the 20th.
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Personally I got more of a kick out of Iraq being tapped to head the UN Conference on Disarmament.
Of course they don't seem to have had any WMDs, did they? So actually, when it came to disarmament ...
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
Louima and Diallou were a few years ago (and just the worst cases of NYC police misconduct - a certain stun grenade incident is a mere few weeks old). Native Americans have been screwed up to the present day (although now we are only cheating them out of money and taking their kids away - much better than the small pox blankets). Then there's the death penalty which puts us in the same distinguished club as some of the worst violators. Don't forget the report released by the inspector general at Justice about how well detainees were treated (detainees I might add who were hald for standing while arab). Seen Jose Padilla anywhere but on a milk carton?
Again, we're not in the same league as the worst offenders - but we're not Canada or Scandinavia either.
The slave thing was just to illustrate that the US has never had a particularly good record. In fact, the **** we did in the 19th century would have been considered crimes against humanity in the 20th.
I understand where u r coming from but an isolated police incident is hardly a valid point in this context=[.
I understand where u r coming from but an isolated police incident is hardly a valid point in this context=[.
In NYC, we have what you might call a consistent pattern of behavior. Diallou and Louima were merely the most agregious examples. Stuff like the recent stun grenade rolled into the wrong apartment (and literally scaring a 50yr old woman to death) isn't that uncommon.
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
In NYC, we have what you might call a consistent pattern of behavior. Diallou and Louima were merely the most agregious examples. Stuff like the recent stun grenade rolled into the wrong apartment (and literally scaring a 50yr old woman to death) isn't that uncommon.
an accident is a violation of human rights? stretch it till it breaks?
Also compared to real human rights offenders the US government immediately went after the offending cops and prosecuted them. Is that the actions of a state which violates human rights?
BTW even the UN has agreed that the death penalty is not a violation of human rights provided the accused has access to adequate legal representation so you're completely off base there.
Lastly, there were less then 40 of those detainees who ended up being held longer then allowable and every single one of them plead guilty to a crime and were deported. We're talking about a very small scale technical infraction which happened to people who were all self admitted criminals (mostly illegal aliens but still criminals). Don't you feel even the least bit foolish talking about people being arrest simply because they were Arabs when they were in fact illegal aliens? Shouldn’t you at least be honest enough to include information about their crimes and why they were held before you try to berate America?
The current Libyan dictator is one of the most brutal and repressive regimes in the world plus he has a history of executing political rivals as well as financing terrorist attacks upon civilian airliners.
I believe he heads the regime, but isn't actually the regime himself.
Interestingly enough, the United States funded assassination attempts on Fidel Castro, backed the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua (did you think they were passing out water purifying tablets along with the landmines?) and funded and supplied Mobutu Sese Seko, Jonas Savimbi, Pinochet, and other freedom loving tyrants and dictators, not quite ad infinitum, luckily.
Whilst telling its N.A.T.O. allies not to trade with Iran, it was quite happy to do the same behind their backs so the great human microphone Reagan could at last appear to do something right in his erratic foreign policy.
Civilian airliners? Gee, didn't the United States down an Iranian civilian airliner? And then lie about it? Why yes, so it did.
Does the United State shield terrorists who bring down civilian airliners? Why yes, it does. But only if they're Cuban airliners.
Those of you who have so far assumed that Arab= anti-semitic and that therefore the United Nations must be anti-semitic because it has Arab member nations have clearly forgotten the countries with an even longer and more auspicious history of organised anti-semitism- France, Great Britain, Spain, Poland, Italy, Russia, Germany, and so on. Not a Muslim or Arab state amongst them. You might also do well to recall that Arab is not synonymous with Muslim- the world's most populous Muslim states being, if I recall correctly, Indonesia and Nigeria.
Even so, Libya heading any commission to do with human rights is like putting necrotizing fasciitis in charge of a plastic surgery ward.
Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.
...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln
Explains why we are in it, and explains why you are in it.
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
Hersgey: I hope you really don't think all Americans are stupid just like we really don't think all Europeans are Communists. We just like to raze you folks because it brings joy and entertainment to our dull lives.
"We just like to raze you folks because it brings joy and entertainment to our dull lives."
Really? I'm actually paid by the government to troll some yanks on internet fora...
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
exactly what you said. they are peacekeepers, police w/ bigger guns. the United States has an actual military. and you need that sometimes. sure if u wanna try to patrol the streets of some horrifically third world nation w/ a few thousand troops to satisfy bleeding hearts in the western world thats all nice n good.
Sure you need an 'actual military' sometimes, but peacekeepers are also necessary, and are certainly not useless, as you suggested earlier in this thread. The UN can call on the US and other countries with powerful militaries to help if they need it.
As for patrolling the streets, you seem to suggest that the best approach to global security is to let things deteriorate. I disagree.
but can u keep china out of taiwan? could u have removed saddam from kuwait? could u keep Israel from being ethnically cleansed? What kind of leverage does the arsenal of the UN posess in relation to places like north korea?
China will probably get Taiwan back diplomatically. Why would they go to the trouble of invading it? Israel can more than protect itself, thanks in part to the French giving them nukes, and it engages in ethnic cleansing of it's own. As for NK, the arsenal of the UN consists of weapons inspectors, treaties, embargoes and so on. They've not been very effective so far, but neither has American power.
didn't see your last sentence. ur tripping a lil on logic there though. ur assuming 12 is enuff to do the job. maybe we actually need 20, or some equivalent monetary expenditure(not all on carriers). and that 12 is merely doing our best to fulfill our needs given our constraints.
There's no way to tell how many are needed to do the job. There are also other considerations, such as the 'cool factor' and giving jobs to defense contractors.
Anyway, how would the world become more secure if America had 20 super-carriers? Sure, America would be more secure, but the world would not.
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