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  • #61
    Oh, and I found the article that elijah was referring to:

    All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.


    This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.


    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.


    I also found this:

    Although the Supreme Court had held, prior to Marshall's appointment to the Bench, that the supremacy clause rendered null and void a state constitutional or statutory provision which was inconsistent with a treaty executed by the Federal Government, 1 it was left for him to develop the full significance of the clause as applied to acts of Congress. By his vigorous opinions in McCulloch v. Maryland 2 and Gibbons v. Ogden, 3 he gave the principle a vitality which survived a century of vacillation under the doctrine of dual federalism. In the former case, he asserted broadly that ''the States have no power, by taxation or otherwise, to ******, impede, burden, or in any manner control, the operations of the constitutional laws enacted by Congress to carry into execution the powers vested in the general government. This is, we think, the unavoidable consequence of that supremacy which the Constitution has declared.'' 4 From this he concluded that a state tax upon notes issued by a branch of the Bank of the United States was void.


    In Gibbons v. Ogden, the Court held that certain statutes of New York granting an exclusive right to use steam navigation on the waters of the State were null and void insofar as they applied to vessels licensed by the United States to engage in coastal trade. Said the Chief Justice: ''In argument, however, it has been contended, that if a law passed by a State, in the exercise of its acknowledged sovereignty, comes into conflict with a law passed by Congress in pursuance of the Constitution, they affect the subject, and each other, like equal opposing powers. But the framers of our Constitution foresaw this state of things, and provided for it, by declaring the supremacy not only of itself, but of the laws made in pursuance of it. The nullity of an act, inconsistent with the Constitution, is produced by the declaration, that the Constitution is the supreme law. The appropriate application of that part of the clause which confers the same supremacy on laws and treaties, is to such acts of the State legislatures as do not transcend their powers, but though enacted in the execution of acknowledged State powers, interfere with, or are contrary to the laws of Congress, made in pursuance of the Constitution, or some treaty made under the authority of the United States. In every such case, the act of Congress, or the treaty, is supreme; and the law of the State, though enacted in the exercise of powers not controverted, must yield to it.'' 5


    Basically, the treaties thing applies to the STATES, not the federal government.

    EDIT: btw, that's from FindLaw

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
      If the US signs up to a treaty, any violation by the US is henceforth a constitutional violation.


      Not true at all. Congress may pass a law which abrogates a treaty. Treaties are the same as laws and can be replaced by a new law.
      AFAIK that's not true, Imran. Treaties have greater force than any law other than constitutional ones.

      In other words, once the SCOTUS gets its hands on it any law which abrogates a treaty will be struck down.
      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
      Stadtluft Macht Frei
      Killing it is the new killing it
      Ultima Ratio Regum

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by KrazyHorse


        Snooze. Would you mind showing me where you got the pile of doodoo you just posted instead of referring me to another poster?
        It's what you quoted.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by KrazyHorse


          AFAIK that's not true, Imran. Treaties have greater force than any law other than constitutional ones.

          In other words, once the SCOTUS gets its hands on it any law which abrogates a treaty will be struck down.
          See my above post... which addresses this.

          Comment


          • #65
            we live in a democracy, remember?
            [s]you do, I'm British [/s] There is a point where it becomes tyranny by majority, and if you are correct, the Guantanamo is an example of that.

            it's a bit different than capturing an armed guy in a war zone
            Logically, they have to show that the manner of the mans incarceration in valid, before they can then go to try him for those crimes, as the nature of the trial in this case is being determined by the legal status of the prisoner.

            On a different note, you are getting bogged down by legal notions, these men are human first and above all else, so logically deserve human rights. Whether or not they are breaching the letter of the geneva convention, they are certainly breaching the spirit of it.
            "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
            "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by skywalker
              Where does it say it applies to non-US citizens? HOW would it apply to non-US citizens. The Guantanamo prisoners didn't decide to accept the contract that is the US constitution, thus it does not apply to them.
              Do you specialise in being an idiot?

              The US government cannot violate constitutional protections of noncitizens captured by civil authorities on US soil. Ask anybody with any knowledge of the law here.
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

              Comment


              • #67
                This is better:

                Article VI of the US Constitution states that:

                "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;"
                "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                Comment


                • #68
                  I love how people are ignoring MtG.
                  I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                  For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    captured by civil authorities on US soil


                    They were captured in Afghanistan. Do you specialize in being an idiot?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by elijah
                      This is better:

                      Article VI of the US Constitution states that:

                      "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;"
                      See the post at the top of the page!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        AFAIK that's not true, Imran. Treaties have greater force than any law other than constitutional ones.


                        Um.. yes it is true . The SCOTUS has ruled that treaties are equal to Congressional laws. Therefore they are.

                        As the part of the Constitution says:

                        This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land

                        Laws, treaties, and the Constitution are all the supreme law of the land. SCOTUS decided that the Constitution is all powerful in Marbury v. Madison.
                        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Basically, the treaties thing applies to the STATES, not the federal government.
                          If that is true (and no I cant be bothered to read it), then I stand corrected. However, my argument against guantanamo is not purely legal, see above posts.
                          "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                          "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Imram, the treaties thing applies to the STATES. See the post at the top of the page... *sigh*

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by skywalker


                              It's what you quoted.
                              What?

                              A bald statement is not an argument. Do a search using my name and the search term "Geneva". Relevant quotes from the convention will appear demonstrating the necessity of a fair hearing to determine the status of prisoners.
                              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                              Stadtluft Macht Frei
                              Killing it is the new killing it
                              Ultima Ratio Regum

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by KrazyHorse


                                What?

                                A bald statement is not an argument. Do a search using my name and the search term "Geneva". Relevant quotes from the convention will appear demonstrating the necessity of a fair hearing to determine the status of prisoners.
                                No, I meant it's the statement of Oerdin's that you quoted.

                                Notice that none of your "arguments" have been anything more than bald statements either.

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