Guantanamo bay

[KrazyHorse]

And yes, I was aware that competence in this case had nothing to do with their intelligence...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by elijah
Thats not very nice is it? *runs crying into toilet*

On the contrary.

There is no standard for proof full stop! Beyond reasonable doubt, good evidence for the proposition etc etc. Usual stuff.

Instead of just spouting generalities, read the ****ing convention language, OK? Their rights are that their status be determined by a competent (meaning having jurisdiction over the place and person and subject) tribunal. That means a military tribunal of a warring party occupying the territory in question. In the US case, if the tribunal procedures that are under review now are even vaguely consistent with the UCMJ and MCM (which they likely will be, since it's military lawyers, they'll stick with the system and procedures they know), then the procedual treatment of those tried will be well protected.

They have no right to a fair trial? That sounds fishy.

POW's have a right to summary or general military trials of competent jurisdiction. Unlawful combatants are not covered under the rules governing treatment of POW's.

My dear sir, you are negating your right to be taken seriously with **** like that.

I'm very serious. Dead serious, shall we say. Unlawful combatants do not have POW or noncombatant status, so summary disposal of the problem in the field is perfectly legal. War is about killing the enemy, in case you hadn't heard. It's not police work, or a touchy-feely get to know you exercise. Even regular soldiers, if you resist until the enemy has to close assault you, you'd better take them out, or make your peace with God, Allah, or whoever, because your ass is done.

Theres no legal barrier to that being the case for me, yet I can be captured and placed in terrible conditions like Guantanamo, tried under an unfair military tribunal and if found guilty (unfairly), executed, yet I have committed no crime?? It may be legal, but it sucks!!

Actually, you can drop your weapon, raise your hands, and have your face blown off at full auto anyway. Something to think about before running off to play terrorist or unlawful combatant. Better wear a uniform, carry your weapons openly, report to an organized chain of command, and adhere to the laws and customs of land warfare.

Then they cannot expect me to take them seriously. Of course, they say big deal, but wait 20 years

I'm sure they're all appropriately concerned.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


It did not have the proper authority because of the orders issued it (that all Al Qaeda prisoners were to be declared unlawful combatants)

That doesn't affect competence. That is simply a legal opinion that al Qaeda is not a qualifying combatant power or a qualifying organization or militia of a combatant power, such that membership therein created a general presumption of POW status, beyond the initial presumption afforded all captured persons.

That's no different than determining that members of Mad Mike Hoare's Wild Geese captured in the Congo were unlawful combatants, because it was an irregular mercenary organization which didn't give a damn about the customs of war.

There is precedence for such determinations, based on determining the legal status of a group or organization.


The Taleban, OTOH, was found to be a militia of a qualifying combatant, and thus most Taleban members were presumptively POWs on the basis of their membership.

[Whaleboy]

MtG: If you are correct, then that really really sucks!!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Yeah, but they weren't training to fight the US in Afghanistan (which would have necessitated getting themselves some uniforms). They were training to become terrorists, and only took up arms as a result of an unexpected (?) development (the invasion of Afghanistan).

Your first point admits they are not occupants of the territory in the sense of the convention - they were foreigners temporary using the territory as a training facility. They were also armed at all times, as it's pretty well established now that al Qaeda provided muscle for the Taleban, as well as to control the Taleban to a large degree. Not even near a majority of the al Qaeda members were in terrorist training, (cf John Walker Lindh) - the vast majority were irregular combatants independent of the Taleban chain of command, fighting the NA and EA.

Also, the standard in 4A6 is of spontaneously taking arms. Having days or weeks notice and being part of a pre-armed group doesn't even come close.

The possibility at least that this interpretation is the right one is there. And that's why there needed to be a competent tribunal, not like the one which was convened (which basically rendered hundreds of verdicts a day and which was constrained by the definition imposed by the Prez)

As shown, even if your version of events is correct, it doesn't meet the 4A6 standard. As for the speed of the tribunal - these people weren't tried or convicted of any offenses, the only thing done was to determine their status under the GC. And in the vast majority of cases, they didn't get shipped to Gitmo. The vast majority are free, or in Afghan government or third-party goverment custody for reasons independent of the tribunal's determination of status under the GC.

[Whaleboy]

Ahem, MtG, we're not just talking about legality here...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by elijah
MtG: If you are correct, then that really really sucks!!

Let me put it this way - (a) as bad as the Taleban were, their members were found to be presumptive POWs in all but a handful of cases.

(b) What kind of slack do you think they'd cut you as a prisoner?

War is a serious business.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by elijah
Ahem, MtG, we're not just talking about legality here...

Sure we are. The "morality" is that these *******s forfeited virtually all rights and protections as a result of their chosen manner of carrying out jihad. The fact that a vast majority of them will eventually return to their families is a hell of a lot better deal than they were dishing out when they ran things, and pretty lucky for them.

Maybe you want to watch that video of them testing out gas on a dog a few times? Or read a little al Qutb? Or read an al Qaeda training manual?

**** 'em. They're lucky they don't get a quick one to the back of the head.

[Whaleboy]

War is a serious business

War is a twisted business. Dont do it!

[MichaeltheGreat]

We didn't start it, the *******s did.

But we're going to finish it.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat



**** 'em. They're lucky they don't get a quick one to the back of the head.

Well that's true - I saw a doco last night about the ruskies storming that theatre the Chechens took over.

No need for trials after that little operation.

But this whole camp thing is wrong and ultimately counter productive on a lot of levels. I think the Administration are looking for a face saving way out of it. It's becoming a big embarrassment. Also must be hugely expensive and corrosive of morale out there.

[Whaleboy]

MtG, who are you to judge these people? You may have your morality and judgements by them, and that is fine, but yours and those like yours should not be forced on others, to do such a thing is inherently irrational, illogical, and fundamentally flawed.

[Whaleboy]

We didn't start it, the *******s did.

They responded to your foreign policy. Someones got national wounded pride .

But we're going to finish it

You're not, you're really not!! I'd like to see the US gain victory in this war, but its not going to happen! Hell I could fight a war against terror better than them, but it wouldn't win votes.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by elijah
MtG, who are you to judge these people? You may have your morality and judgements by them, and that is fine, but yours and those like yours should not be forced on others, to do such a thing is inherently irrational, illogical, and fundamentally flawed.

So instead of live and let live, your version is "let them kill you and declare jihad against you, but let live anyway, because it's all a big ****ing cultural misunderstanding?

Read al Qutb and/or al Maududi and form your own judgments.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by elijah


They responded to your foreign policy. Someones got national wounded pride .

Hardly, I don't even live in the US, that's how nationalistic I am.

And you really ought to study the ideology of modern Islamic fundamentalism before you expose yourself as even more of a misguided western fool who buys into al Qaeda soundbites.

You're not, you're really not!! I'd like to see the US gain victory in this war, but its not going to happen! Hell I could fight a war against terror better than them, but it wouldn't win votes.

Go get 'em, tiger.

I feel safer already.