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  • #1

    Pacifist conservatives and war-hawk leftists...

    i just noticed something that Frozzy posted that has been echoed a hundred times on apolyton...

    I'm right-wing on economic issues, and on home affairs, but the fact I'm a pacifist brings me back to a centrist
    why is pacificism seen as left-wing? where the **** did this idea come from that leftists want peace and rightists are all war-like?
    "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
    "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi
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  • #2
    GBasN
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    • #3
      "Pacificism at all costs no matter the consquences" is, and always will be left wing. It is nonsense. I do not like war. I never have. There has to be a reasonable settlement, and as Henry Kissinger said, in his book "Ending the Vietnam war" (which is far more credible than any other leftist nonsense out there), a honorable solution. If this cannot be attained, military force must be used.
      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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      • #4
        where the **** did this idea come from that leftists want peace and rightists are all war-like?
        Conservatives are usually more in favor of high military spending, pre-emptive strikes, military action around the world, etc., whereas lefties usually favor less military spending and less involvement in war, although of course in the US there have been numerous exceptions, such as Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Clinton, etc. However, these people would probably mostly be considered centrists or right wing by the rest of the world, so the point still holds I suppose.
        Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
        Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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        • #5
          There has to be a reasonable settlement, and as Henry Kissinger said, in his book "Ending the Vietnam war" (which is far more credible than any other leftist nonsense out there), a honorable solution. If this cannot be attained, military force must be used.
          Wouldn't the honorable solution have been for the US military to pull out, and allow the Vietnamese people the right to self determination?

          Ahh, you meant the militarily honorable solution for the US Army and US politicians
          Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
          Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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          • #6
            Originally posted by David Floyd


            Wouldn't the honorable solution have been for the US military to pull out, and allow the Vietnamese people the right to self determination?
            Well Kissinger also stated in his book that the South Vietnamese government was not democratic, and that he was very disappointed that the filthy communist government in North Vietnam extended its grips over the people. The fact is the Vietnamese people never had a right to determine their destiny when the US left. They don't have this today.

            Ahh, you meant the militarily honorable solution for the US Army and US politicians
            Read the book, and you will receive a different viewpoint rather than the same old bull**** you receive from the same old commentators.
            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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            • #7
              Well Kissinger also stated in his book that the South Vietnamese government was not democratic,
              The government we were militarily propping up, and the government we helped put into office, you mean?

              and that he was very disappointed that the filthy communist government in North Vietnam extended its grips over the people. The fact is the Vietnamese people never had a right to determine their destiny when the US left. They don't have this today.
              OK, but if the Vietnamese people had the choice, it's likely they would have opted for communism as opposed to the military dictatorship of the South. Not that either government was any good, you understand, but that's hardly the point.

              Read the book, and you will receive a different viewpoint rather than the same old bull**** you receive from the same old commentators.
              Sorry, but I have little respect for Kissinger. The guy was a son of a *****.
              Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
              Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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              • #8
                Originally posted by David Floyd


                The government we were militarily propping up, and the government we helped put into office, you mean?
                Yes, he admitted it. And was not glad about what was done. In fact, quite angry.

                OK, but if the Vietnamese people had the choice, it's likely they would have opted for communism as opposed to the military dictatorship of the South.
                I don't think so. I would rather say they would of opted for free elections which they didn't have. And first off, the North Vietnamese government was a military dictatorship too.

                Sorry, but I have little respect for Kissinger. The guy was a son of a *****.
                And I would say the same about you.
                For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                • #9
                  I don't think so. I would rather say they would of opted for free elections which they didn't have.
                  The point, though, is that the US was doing nothing to further the cause of self determination by propping up a military dictatorship.

                  And first off, the North Vietnamese government was a military dictatorship too.
                  North Vietnam was certainly a dictatorship, and I'll be the first to condemn them right alongside the South. I'm not quite as stupid as Jane Fonda.
                  Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                  Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by David Floyd


                    The point, though, is that the US was doing nothing to further the cause of self determination by propping up a military dictatorship.
                    And did I ever say otherwise? All I was saying is that elections should of occurred, not dictatorship.

                    North Vietnam was certainly a dictatorship, and I'll be the first to condemn them right alongside the South. I'm not quite as stupid as Jane Fonda.
                    Glad to hear that.

                    I also condemn them both, in particular the Dictator of South Vietnam, Diem.
                    For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                    • #11
                      David:

                      The point, though, is that the US was doing nothing to further the cause of self determination by propping up a military dictatorship.
                      who cares about self-determination when out interests are threatened... i mean vietnam aint a good example cause they wasnt going to do any serious damage to the US but i would think that american safety and the safety of the free world supersedes 'self-determination'
                      "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
                      "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        And did I ever say otherwise? All I was saying is that elections should of occurred, not dictatorship.
                        Excellent. However, you implied that you agreed with Kissinger re: arriving at an "honorable" solution. Obviously, Kissinger's definition of honorable would differ greatly with that of other people, so I was just wondering how you would define the word.

                        AS,

                        who cares about self-determination when out interests are threatened... i mean vietnam aint a good example cause they wasnt going to do any serious damage to the US
                        Bingo

                        but i would think that american safety and the safety of the free world supersedes 'self-determination'
                        How in the world could self-determination be threatening to the United States? It's pretty much a given that democracies don't tend to go to war with each other, and self-determination implies democratic government.

                        But either way, I'll turn it around on you. Who cares about American "interests" when individual liberty is at stake? If individual liberty isn't the greatest American interest, then what exactly is the US about?
                        Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                        Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by David Floyd


                          Excellent. However, you implied that you agreed with Kissinger re: arriving at an "honorable" solution. Obviously, Kissinger's definition of honorable would differ greatly with that of other people, so I was just wondering how you would define the word.
                          That was preventing the North Vietnamese Government from taking over... that was the honorable solution. I do agree with Kissinger. By the way did you ever read the book I mentioned?
                          For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                          • #14
                            I call the people for the war in Iraq chicken-hawks, not warhawks.



                            And I would say the same about you.


                            First off, how do you really know a person by messaging with them on the net? I know I'm a whole lot nastier on the net than I am in real life.

                            Second, what does the fact that you don't like him have to do with anything?

                            who cares about self-determination when out interests are threatened... i mean vietnam aint a good example cause they wasnt going to do any serious damage to the US but i would think that american safety and the safety of the free world supersedes 'self-determination'
                            Self-determination matters because without it a country can go into a country, say they hurt the bullying country's interests, and then set up the type of government they like just because of that.

                            Now, if a council of the nations of the world (such as the UN) says it hurts the interests of the rest of the world, that's a different story.
                            "The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

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                            • #15
                              who cares about self-determination when out interests are threatened... i mean vietnam aint a good example cause they wasnt going to do any serious damage to the US but i would think that american safety and the safety of the free world supersedes 'self-determination'
                              Then the Vietnamese had every right to invade us given the damage we did over there. But this notion that the "safety" of the "free world" supercedes "self-determination", i.e., FREEDOM is an interesting paradox, don't you think?

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