Things which piss me off.... Teachers sprouting ignorance!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap
As a political ideology, capitalism is incidental to Facism: the first facist manifesto caled for things like old age pensions for all, lots of goernment porgrams, so forth and so on.

Being authoritarian does not make one facist: Pinochet was authoritarian, but he did not do anything revolutionary (except perahps open up economically...) The notion of being reactionary is one of the things that for me distinguishes one from being a facist: while much of the "Volk" talk gives the impression that the system yearns to "return" to some ancient wonderland, its methods are extreme and revolutionary, giving you a very different end form whatever fantasy past some people may yearn for.

The dictionary definition of fascism doesn't say anything about revolution. Like I was telling Imran, you can use the strict definition of fascism, but you can also use it as a relative term. People do in fact use it in that way. I don't think that will stop either.

Originally posted by GePap

Capitalism does not require trade liberalisation. It only requires the private ownership of capital.

Hmmm? You can have private ownership of capital in a social democratic system.

Socialism is a very broad term. It most often means the use of resources to benefit the people. Communism is more specific.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Damn Calvanists . Oh that Protestant Work Ethic indeed .

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kidicious

The dictionary definition of fascism doesn't say anything about revolution. Like I was telling Imran, you can use the strict definition of fascism, but you can also use it as a relative term. People do in fact use it in that way. I don't think that will stop either.

The dictionary defintion of a complex ideology is bound to be crap, just like the definition of marxism or communism are likely to be incomplete. I base my critique on having read some of the seminal works of facism. (It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag)

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag

Left without any bruises?

[GePap]

Now on to fascism!

A lot of the definitions I found are, or seem to be Marxist based, which I consider of tract.

This to me is the most honest one (that the person seems to have read fascists, which would be a nice thing to do before you go to define what they think, no?)

http://www.publiceye.org/eyes/whatfasc.html

Here is a longer one,I don;t like it as much, but it remains much more objective and looks at sources:

http://www.remember.org/hist.root.what.html

He he, just to compare, and utterly idiotic "anti-Bush" one:

http://www.zeppscommentaries.com/Politics/fascism.htm

And a more common, but still silly in my view, one:

http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm

Oh, and the Maoist:

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/wim/cong/fascismdef.html

Enjoy.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap
He, on the "definition" of capitalism from distinct viewpoints:

Marxist:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgabriel/capitalism_defined.htm

Objectivist:

http://solohq.com/Objectivism101/Politics_Capitalism.shtml

Calvinist!

http://www.visi.com/~contra_m/pc/195...efinition.html

OK, here's the definition from the Oxford Dictionary of Economics.

capitalism The economic system based on private property and private enterprize..... Capitalism does not imply complete laissez-faire....

I guess if the govt had complete control over the economy that that would not be capitalsim even if ownership was private, but that would have to mean that decision making was completely centralized. The definition of fascism doesn't include any requirement for complete central planning though. In fact I'm sure that economic decision making in Italy and Germany were somewhat decentralized.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag

Left without any bruises?

The publishers are very nice, they make the book solid black, with the tiule and authoer in red, in small letters. And I did not advertise that it was there.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap


The dictionary defintion of a complex ideology is bound to be crap, just like the definition of marxism or communism are likely to be incomplete. I base my critique on having read some of the seminal works of facism. (It is always fun walking through San Fran> wth Hitler in my bag)

But I'm not saying that Singapore is just like Nazi Germany just because I call them fascist. There are all kinds of democracies and yet we call them all democracies regardless of their diferences.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The publishers are very nice, they make the book solid black, with the tiule and authoer in red, in small letters.

Ah, I've seen that book in the bookstores! That is definetly a book to buy at Amazon.com for me... it would be waaay too wierd to buy it at a bookstore .

capitalism The economic system based on private property and private enterprize..... Capitalism does not imply complete laissez-faire.....

Sounds like a silly defintion. Why? Because worker democracy (where the workers own the means of production, but there still remains private property and enterprise) would technically be capitalism, even though it is the communists that advocate it.

[chequita guevara]

Why is Speer sporting a Maoist group's logo?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap
Now on to fascism!

A lot of the definitions I found are, or seem to be Marxist based, which I consider of tract.

This to me is the most honest one (that the person seems to have read fascists, which would be a nice thing to do before you go to define what they think, no?)

http://www.publiceye.org/eyes/whatfasc.html

Here's a quote from this one.

It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state.

See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Sounds like a silly defintion. Why? Because worker democracy (where the workers own the means of production, but there still remains private property and enterprise) would technically be capitalism, even though it is the communists that advocate it.

That's ridiculous. You need capitalists to have capitalism. What you are talking about is communism with decentralized planning.

[Imran Siddiqui]

See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always.

The onus of proof is on you to show a Fascist state that has NOT been totalitarian.

That's ridiculous. You need capitalists to have capitalism. What you are talking about is communism with decentralized planning.

The definition you quoted said private property and private enterprise. In a Worker Democracy there is both. Under the definition you quoted, it is capitalism.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always.

The onus of proof is on you to show a Fascist state that has NOT been totalitarian.

If I show that all decisions were not made by the leader in one fascist state will you bow down and kiss my feet?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

That's ridiculous. You need capitalists to have capitalism. What you are talking about is communism with decentralized planning.

The definition you quoted said private property and private enterprise. In a Worker Democracy there is both. Under the definition you quoted, it is capitalism.

There's no private ownership or enterprize. There's community ownership and enterprize.

[chequita guevara]

In both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the power of the government was hardly absolute. When their corporate masters rang, the Nazis came running. Whatever they wanted, the Nazis gave them. Labor troubles, crush the labor unions and replace them with subservient Nazi unions. Not enough of a market, fat government contracts to build the autobahn, and rearm the country. Need new colonies, take Eastern Europe. need cheap labor, free Jewish slaves.

Imagine a country ruled directly by the Mafia and drug gangs and you have an idea what fascism was like. Much like the USSR was basically a country run by the old Teamsters.