Things which piss me off.... Teachers sprouting ignorance!

[Imran Siddiqui]

If I show that all decisions were not made by the leader in one fascist state will you bow down and kiss my feet?

The leader is the ultimate power. If he delegates power it does not mean that the government isn't totalitarian, because it all comes back to him.

There's no private ownership or enterprize. There's community ownership and enterprize.

It isn't community ownership, because the community doesn't own the factory, the workers do. Worker ownership is hardly different from private ownership. There have been many examples of people coming together to run a business (just about all lawfirms for one). That STILL means it is private company, just owned by many people.

When their corporate masters rang, the Nazis came running. Whatever they wanted, the Nazis gave them. Labor troubles, crush the labor unions and replace them with subservient Nazi unions. Not enough of a market, fat government contracts to build the autobahn, and rearm the country. Need new colonies, take Eastern Europe. need cheap labor, free Jewish slaves.

All of that stuff was part of the Fascist platform... so I don't get where the idea of the 'corporate masters' called the Fascists went running. Crushing the labor unions is one of the top things on a Fascist agenda. Socialist labor unions divide the country by class warfare, so they must be crushed and replaced by Nazi unions that work for unity of the state.

The Autobahn and military buildup are all consistant with Fascist ideology. The autobahn is a public project for the benefit of the people. And Fascism loves military buildup... the state must be strong.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
All of that stuff was part of the Fascist platform... so I don't get where the idea of the 'corporate masters' called the Fascists went running. Crushing the labor unions is one of the top things on a Fascist agenda. Socialist labor unions divide the country by class warfare, so they must be crushed and replaced by Nazi unions that work for unity of the state.

The Autobahn and military buildup are all consistant with Fascist ideology. The autobahn is a public project for the benefit of the people. And Fascism loves military buildup... the state must be strong.

The facsists also said they would crush the capitalists, which they never did. They never even tried to do it. Those aspects of fascist rhetoric (ideology is too strong a word for the hodgepodge beliefs) that suited their corporate masters they kept. Those that threatened the capitalist they disposed of . . . with prejudice.

The Stormtroopers very much believed the anti-capitalist part of Nazi rhetoric, and once the left was crushed, they began agitating for the Nazi "revolution" to crush the capitalists and establish the perfect fascist society. It was the SA who was crushed instead. Ein volk, ein reich, ein furher only applied to the little people, not the owners of Germany. It wasn't until the Nazis began losing the war that they began excersizing total control over production, and only because the war necessitated it. Even then, they still ensure that the capitalists made plenty of profit, when that money surely could have been put to better use for the war effort. But then, even the US did that.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

If I show that all decisions were not made by the leader in one fascist state will you bow down and kiss my feet?

The leader is the ultimate power. If he delegates power it does not mean that the government isn't totalitarian, because it all comes back to him.

Now you're on the slippery slope. See you want to think only in absolute terms, and that's not reality. That's your fantasy world.

If decision making is decentralized and there is private ownership of capital then that is by definition Capitalism by your own admission.

Totalitarianism like fascism is a relative term. It means that the govt has the power to make any decision, but it doesn't mean that the govt actually makes any decision. The only difference between authoritarian govt and totalitarian govt is the relative amount of decisions that the govt makes. In both govts the govt has the power to make any decision that it wants.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

There's no private ownership or enterprize. There's community ownership and enterprize.

It isn't community ownership, because the community doesn't own the factory, the workers do. Worker ownership is hardly different from private ownership. There have been many examples of people coming together to run a business (just about all lawfirms for one). That STILL means it is private company, just owned by many people.

Get your dictionary. Private means personal. Personal means individual.

[GePap]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Why is Speer sporting a Maoist group's logo?

He should really read the definitions of fascism, see which one he likes.

It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state.

See 'usually though a totalitarian state.' Not always.

Kid, what matters is the aim: no capitalisst seeks to subordinate all spheres while working to create a single organic community. The aims are inherently totalitarian, even if the means are not always totalitarian.

Hey Che, did you read any of the defintions? (secially the top two?)

[chequita guevara]

Nope, didn't. Don't really wanna read too much about fascism or murder or anything like that now. I've spent far too much time the last month reading about murder and I can't stand it anymore.

[Elok]

Why must all conversations on this board inevitably turn to Jesus or Nazis?

[Imran Siddiqui]

The facsists also said they would crush the capitalists, which they never did.

Well seeing as how they were backed by some capitalists, you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Theories aren't always perfect, as you well know che. Hitler sacrificed theory for survival.

Get your dictionary. Private means personal. Personal means individual.

So, let's get this straight. In your opinion private property means individual property and same for enterprise?

So does that mean that you consider corporations to NOT be private property or enterprise?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap
Kid, what matters is the aim: no capitalisst seeks to subordinate all spheres while working to create a single organic community. The aims are inherently totalitarian, even if the means are not always totalitarian.

I disagree. Aim to me is insignificant. The reality of the system is what is significant.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Elok
Why must all conversations on this board inevitably turn to Jesus or Nazis?

Because there were no Jesus nazis.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Get your dictionary. Private means personal. Personal means individual.

So, let's get this straight. In your opinion private property means individual property and same for enterprise?

So does that mean that you consider corporations to NOT be private property or enterprise?

Corporations are private property. They can be owned by one individual or individuals can be part owners of the corporation. That's different than the 'workers' owning the business unless the workers have individual private ownership of the business. On that account it would be capitalism. Odin and others have never specified whether workers would be able to speculate with the ownership of such a business so I can't really comment for them.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Corporations are private property. They can be owned by one individual or individuals can be part owners of the corporation. That's different than the 'workers' owning the business unless the workers have individual private ownership of the business.

Workers Democracy means that ALL workers in the company have individual private ownership of a part of the company... this is why they can vote on things such as production and prices, because they own a certain part of the company. The ownership of the company is equally divided among all workers.

Basically they are all own shares in the business.. Workers Democracy transfers the shares from people who don't work in the company to those that do.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Corporations are private property. They can be owned by one individual or individuals can be part owners of the corporation. That's different than the 'workers' owning the business unless the workers have individual private ownership of the business.

Workers Democracy means that ALL workers in the company have individual private ownership of a part of the company... this is why they can vote on things such as production and prices, because they own a certain part of the company. The ownership of the company is equally divided among all workers.

Basically they are all own shares in the business.. Workers Democracy transfers the shares from people who don't work in the company to those that do.

Well can they sell their shares and somehow game the system to get a bigger personal stake, or do they just have an equal say in the production.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well can they sell their shares and somehow game the system to get a bigger personal stake, or do they just have an equal say in the production.

They just have an equal share in production, I believe. The shares are non-transferable, but it is still individual ownership of a part of the company.

I think you are trying to split hairs because you've been caught in a corner .

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Well can they sell their shares and somehow game the system to get a bigger personal stake, or do they just have an equal say in the production.

They just have an equal share in production, I believe. The shares are non-transferable, but it is still individual ownership of a part of the company.

I think you are trying to split hairs because you've been caught in a corner .

If it's their private property then they should be able to sell it. You don't privately own govt property but you have a say in how it is used. If you could sell your share, and you can't of course (that's what makes it community property), that would make it private property. I think. I don't really know what your point is. Why should I be arguing about this?

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Kidicious


If it were you were completely unaware of it last night. Now you know all about it, huh? Your pitifull.

I wonder whose DL this is?

play that DL music