Natural Rights

[Berzerker]

What are they and from where did they originate?

1) Natural rights are expressions of shared, universal desires.
1a) Not wanting to be enslaved and murdered are universal desires.

2) Natural rights are moral claims of ownership beginning with oneself and his labor, but moral claims consistent with universal desires.
2a) If you "own" yourself, then you own your labor.

3) Natural rights are limited to human interaction, not interactions with other life forms.
3a) If a lion eats you, we don't say the lion has deprived you of your natural right to life.

4) They come from existence, i.e., by virtue of your existence, you have natural rights given by that which created the universe and life. In other words, the only evidence we have of this creator's "will" or "design" is what we can see in nature, and since we don't see chains around us leading to those self-appointed "leaders" of our destiny, they have no moral claim to make our decisions about how we live.

If you see a flaw, please post it so I can fine tune my philosophy. Just make sure the flaw is not negated by one of the other criterion.

[Dis]

There are no natural rights.

We just pretend there are to allow for a more civilized society.

[Urban Ranger]

There are no natural rights. All rights are artifical constructs granted to individuals by a society.

[Berzerker]

There are natural rights.

We just ignore them to allow a more civilized society to violate them in the name of morality.

But seriously, I'm asking for flaws in my argument...

[Drake Tungsten]

To join the chorus, natural rights don't exist.

[Sava]

There are no natural rights. All rights are artifical constructs granted to individuals by a society.

correct... in nature... there are no rights.

[Berzerker]

All rights are artifical constructs granted to individuals by a society.

So a society like Iraq or Afghanistan can simply deny a right to life and murder people free from any valid moral condemnation? I thought human rights were a cause celeb of the left...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Berzerker
There are natural rights.

We just ignore them to allow a more civilized society to violate them in the name of morality.

You need to make an argument, not by simply stating your position.

Originally posted by Berzerker
But seriously, I'm asking for flaws in my argument...

1. You failed to show how "natural rights" come from these "universal, shared desires."

2. This does not follow from [1]

3. This is just a limitation on [1]

4. I am not sure what you are trying to get to. Since there are no rights in nature, appealing to nature to support your argument of "natural rights" does not work.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Berzerker
So a society like Iraq or Afghanistan can simply deny a right to life and murder people free from any valid moral condemnation?

Complex Question Berzerker. Tripping over so soon?

Originally posted by Berzerker
I thought human rights were a cause celeb of the left...

Just because we hold that humans should have rights does not mean we see these rights the same way you do.

[Sava]

So a society like Iraq or Afghanistan can simply deny a right to life and murder people free from any valid moral condemnation? I thought human rights were a cause celeb of the left...

the "right" to life is granted by society... not nature.

[loinburger]

Regarding (2): Ownership is not "natural," but is social -- life (and the desire to live) exist independently of social interaction, but property can only exist as a result of an implicit/explicit contract with others (e.g. "I was here first, so I own this land" or "I was here first and I have improved this land through my labor, so I own this land" or "My father owned this land, so now that he is dead I own this land" or "I'm big in the trousers, so I own this land" etc.).

[Urban Ranger]

Hi loin, long time no see. How was your b-day?

Good point, btw

[Berzerker]

UR -

You need to make an argument, not by simply stating your position.

That was a somewhat humorous response to Diss who did the same thing. I was hoping to show him that what he did was what you noticed.

1. You failed to show how "natural rights" come from these "universal, shared desires."

I don't need to, their origin was dealt with in #4. These universal desires simply show that natural rights are "expressions" of shared desires.

4. I am not sure what you are trying to get to. Since there are no rights in nature, appealing to nature to support your argument of "natural rights" does not work.

I'm not appealing to nature, but nature's creator. Since natural rights are moral claims, we don't attribute their recognition to less sentient creatures that may not be able to understand them.

Complex Question Berzerker. Tripping over so soon?

No answer?

Just because we hold that humans should have rights does not mean we see these rights the same way you do.

No, but from where do they originate? You said "society" but didn't answer my question about societies that ignore these rights.

Sava -

the "right" to life is granted by society... not nature.

Then "society" can take it away and murder people free from moral condemnation, true? Upon what would you base your condemnation of human rights violations in a society that denied these rights?

[Berzerker]

loinburger -

Regarding (2): Ownership is not "natural," but is social -- life (and the desire to live) exist independently of social interaction, but property can only exist as a result of an implicit/explicit contract with others (e.g. "I was here first, so I own this land" or "I was here first and I have improved this land through my labor, so I own this land" or "My father owned this land, so now that he is dead I own this land" or "I'm big in the trousers, so I own this land" etc.).

Contracts to protect property rights are another matter. If you own a plot of land and I walk in and take it and there is no government or "society" to help you protect your land, do you still have a moral claim to that land?

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Hi loin, long time no see. How was your b-day?

My birthday went pretty well, I consumed many a margarita . I even gave my grandparents a call, but they hung up on me. Typical.

Gotta disappear again soon, though. Well, after one more thread...