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  • #166
    the high taxes we have here make it possible for people that wouldn't be otherwise to participate in our society. IMO there is no freedom if people are shut out just because of their economic si(u?)rcomstances.


    Shut out from what? Buying the newest toys? It is one thing to provide basic welfare, it is quite another to go beyond that and offer unemployment benefits that are quite comparable to the lowest paying jobs.

    More economic freedom to me means more ability for people to do what they wish with the money that they earn. (I'm proud to be a Ameri-capi-something )
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

    Comment

    • #167
      Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
      the high taxes we have here make it possible for people that wouldn't be otherwise to participate in our society. IMO there is no freedom if people are shut out just because of their economic si(u?)rcomstances.


      Shut out from what? Buying the newest toys? It is one thing to provide basic welfare, it is quite another to go beyond that and offer unemployment benefits that are quite comparable to the lowest paying jobs.

      More economic freedom to me means more ability for people to do what they wish with the money that they earn. (I'm proud to be a Ameri-capi-something )
      Hehe, AmeriKapi... I think we should keep this word on ACS AmerKapi's vs EuroKommies

      Like it or not Imran, but guaranteeing a basic income (and I'm talking food and a roof here, not the latest gizmo's) and healthcare for everyone just takes a lot of money. And being a EuroKommie I don't mind paying for it...

      Okay, just to get back to topic, happy birthday USA, glad to have you around
      Within weeks they'll be re-opening the shipyards
      And notifying the next of kin
      Once again...

      Comment

      • #168
        I know it takes a lot of money. But I think it doesn't have to be as much as some European countries spend. I think the US's system with a health care plan (but not NHS Britain like, but more working with private insurers) would be just fine. The resulting tax increases (which there shouldn't be - there should but cuts in other things) would not be all that high (a few percentage points here and there on the top of the scale would do it).
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

        Comment

        • #169
          Imran, I have to get back to you on this tomorrow. I know I have an answer, but with this last beer and the time over here (3.30 AM) I just don't can't find it...

          Talk to you tomorrow...
          Within weeks they'll be re-opening the shipyards
          And notifying the next of kin
          Once again...

          Comment

          • #170
            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            More economic freedom to me means more ability for people to do what they wish with the money that they earn. (I'm proud to be a Ameri-capi-something )
            What's the difference if you buy it from a firm or you get it from the govt? You still get it. The Dutch get more benefits from the govt so I say they have the same amount of economic freedom.
            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

            Comment

            • #171
              What's the difference if you buy it from a firm or you get it from the govt?


              Because each individual gets to CHOOSE if you get it from a firm.. hence a freer choice. If you get it from the government, you, as an individual, do not get to choose... 51% or more of the population has already decided where your money goes.

              Not saying its bad, per se, I'm just saying it isn't as 'free' to me, and hence less desirable to me.
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

              Comment

              • #172
                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                What's the difference if you buy it from a firm or you get it from the govt?


                Because each individual gets to CHOOSE if you get it from a firm.. hence a freer choice. If you get it from the government, you, as an individual, do not get to choose... 51% or more of the population has already decided where your money goes.

                Not saying its bad, per se, I'm just saying it isn't as 'free' to me, and hence less desirable to me.
                The difference is a group choice as opposed to an individual choice. You're idea of freedom is based on individualism. A group of people can achieve freedom just as individuals achieve freedom.
                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                Comment

                • #173
                  You're idea of freedom is based on individualism.


                  Well, duh! And my friend Hueij also knows this as well. It's the same thing as the neo-Nazi laws in Europe. Different views on life.

                  A group of people can achieve freedom just as individuals achieve freedom.


                  Yes, but whether or not a group of people achieves freedom is based on whether individuals in the group achieve freedom. For example the Civil Rights movement: blacks as a group achieved freedom when a good number of individual blacks were allowed in restaurants and able to sit with whites, etc.
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment

                  • #174
                    You're starting to turn more liberal I think Imran
                    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                    Comment

                    • #175
                      Aroo? Where do you that from?

                      I'm a libertarian and I've had the same (or similar views ) for as long as you've been on this site!

                      Now if you said that and had been here for the 5 years I have, you may have a point .
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment

                      • #176
                        Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                        Aroo? Where do you that from?

                        I'm a libertarian and I've had the same (or similar views ) for as long as you've been on this site!

                        Now if you said that and had been here for the 5 years I have, you may have a point .
                        Two times today we agreed. That's two more times than since I've been posting here. That means you must be getting more liberal, because I know I haven't changed.
                        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                        Comment

                        • #177
                          Actually... perhaps that means you have changed .

                          I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be more liberal when I haven't altered any beliefs of mine .
                          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                          Comment

                          • #178
                            It's perfectly ok to alter beliefs you know
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                            Comment

                            • #179
                              Yes, I've done so before . Perhaps you should follow your own advice?
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                              Comment

                              • #180
                                Do it Kidicious! DO IT!!! change... CHAAAANNGE!!!!!! BWUAHAHAHA!!!!


                                anyway... The USA did it! we're still around one more year... i wonder when we will end?
                                "I bet Ikarus eats his own spunk..."
                                - BLACKENED from America's Army: Operations
                                Kramerman - Creator and Author of The Epic Tale of Navalon in the Civ III Stories Forum

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