Berlusconi now completely mad - should Germany invade?

[Drake Tungsten]

Berlusconi says that there was no apology.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/07/04/berlusconi.eu.commissioners/index.html

You go, Silvio!

[GePap]

Yeah, go you higly corrupt man!

[Drake Tungsten]

I'm glad to see we're in agreement, GePap.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Angelo Scotto

Again, he insulted Italy, not only Berlusconi, he could limit himself to attack Berlusconi such Roman and Di Pietro did but not, that idiot had to insult also Italy and probably he was very proud of it.

How exactly he insulted Italy? Can you post a link to his speech?

If you don't know what you're talking about just shut up, you'll make a better figure...

Maybe I´m a Nazi too, who knows?

And I hate to break it to you, but simply posting things proves nothing. It would be nice if you´d try to argue too.

Oh, and please do not opress me by telling me to shut up - denying my right to free speech sounds Nazi-like

I wrote it already three times, read it again a couple of times, maybe you'll catch it...

Where exactly did you explain why Schulz is a Nazi? And how? What exactly is the Nazi-like comment he made? Or do you think what the said about your ministers (low IQ) is Nazi-like? So people cannot say others are stupid without being Nazis?

Also, how come that the majority in the EP thinks Schulz is not a Nazi? Are they all idiots or Nazis too?

And explain me, now i've to ask you if i can or not use the ?

You can use whatever you want. Not that it would make your "arguments" better....

Trap? politics is all about those games don't you know? What on the hell has it do to with a "conspiracy theory"? prove what? Schulz himself admitted that he provoked Berlusconi, what i've to prove?

Remember, the EP is a democratic institution. People can use polemics in a debate, that is standard tactics in any democratic country. So is criticism. Why is this a trap? If Schulz said wrong things, Berlusconi had the chance to refute Schulz´attacks by proving they´re wrong or simply denying their truth - yet he decided to go into personal attacks. Unprofessional. And wrong, as long you cannot prove that Schulz is really a Nazi.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about, go and read the Schulz speech...

Perhaps you can enlighten us? What exactly did he say that makes him a Nazi? Why do I find nowhere something about it, not only in German news sources, but also in English or US media. Why does noone mention that Schulz made "Nazi" comments?

Acording to this CNN story http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...ess/index.html , the echo to Berlusconi´s comment is almost completely negative. Why is there no outcry about Schulz, when his comments were so evil?

[Thorgal]

Martin Schultz only referred to the Italian leader's use of an immunity law to sidestep bribery charges in an Italian court.
It is logical that a personage as suspicious as Berlusconi would be bothered for such comment.

[BeBMan]

Well, I found the official document of Schulz´ speech on the EU website:

http://www3.europarl.eu.int/omk/omnsapir.so/cre?FILE=0702me&LANGUE=DE&LEVEL=DOC&NUMINT=3-030&LEG=L5

However, it is only available in the original German language, even on the English section of the EU site.

I don´t see anything there that qualifies as Nazi comment. What he said to Berlusconi about his ministers:

"Sie sind nicht verantwortlich, Herr Ratspräsident, für den Intelligenzquotienten Ihrer Minister, aber verantwortlich für das, was die sagen, sind Sie schon."

"You are not responsible for the IQs of your ministers, but for what they say" (my translation)

That is not an attack against Italians or Italian minister in general. That is not racist or Nazi-like at all.

[Spiffor]

I'm not bilingual with German, but I haven't seen any "Godfather" reference.
Besides, the tone was really insulting only when referring to Bossi (he was the one whose IQ was made fun of).
Lastly, I see nowhere any hint of an insult towards the Italians.

Bossi could have responded with insults to Schulz. But Berlusconi ? He only proved further how a disgrace for Italy he is

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'm not bilingual with German, but I haven't seen any "Godfather" reference.

Well... I have.

[Giovanni Wine]

Berlusconi is a strange guy.

He is extremely intelligent, and that's how he managed to build his economic empire (the part of said empire he built legally), but as a politician he is a zero, and he has absolutely NO diplomatic skills (this is not the first time he responds to someone in such a manner).

However he is better than many of the current Italian politicians.
The only 2 politicians in Italy I consider as "good" are: Prodi, who is already the Euro-president, and Fini, who, because of his past as a fascist, will never be able to become the Prime Minister.

Unfortunatly Berlusconi is not able to contain himself, and he responded the worst way possible. Let's hope he will do better from now on (the fact he can not do any worse help a bit in that sense though )

Saluti

[Proteus_MST]

As you are from Italia, Giovanni.
There is one Question which really interests me:

Do you think Berlusconi and his party will win the next Elections?

After all we hear a lot of how Berlusconi abuses the Italian Government for his own goals, and so my personal opinion would be that he won´t win.
But as I don´t know, how the opinion of the People on the Streets in Italia is and you also post, that the Alternatives to Berlusconi would also be no real Candidates for the office of Prime Minister, the answer to the question still remains a mystery to me.
After all I wouldn´t even have assumed, that Berlusconi would get elected at all.

[Giovanni Wine]

Well, personally I think that Berlusconi managed to win last elections mainly because Italy was just coming out of an extremely bad government from the left, the same left that sacked Prodi (the only real good left candidate), and that managed to change 3 governments in 3 years.

The left was/is very divided, and that's the main reason they lost.

Berlusconi and his allies seemed more reliable and more united, that's the main reason they were elected IMHO.

But now the things are changing, some of Berlusconi's allies (Bossi for example) are starting to divide the coalition (just like the left did before), and the new government didn't really do much as for now.

I think that if we were to elect someone now, than probably the left would win, as long as they manage to unite between themselves, and they candidate someone serious (like Fassino).

Right now I doubt Berlusconi's party would get much votes.

What I fear the most is the possibility of Berlusconi becoming President of the Repubblic (the position Ciampi is holding right now), becase after holding such a position you become a senator for life, and therefore you have a life-immunity

But as I said, right now the pubblic opinion is strongly against Berlusconi, even many people I know that supported him last elections are now criticising him badly.

Saluti

[Angelo Scotto]

Originally posted by thorgalaeg
Martin Schultz only referred to the Italian leader's use of an immunity law to sidestep bribery charges in an Italian court.

False, Schulz said a lot of other things, you can read it by yourself.

Originally posted by BeBro
How exactly he insulted Italy? Can you post a link to his speech?

Well, i read it from the Europarliament site, (http://www3.europarl.eu.int/omk/omns...i.pdf&TYPE=CRE) there's the PDF with the complete transcription of the whole session, i see that you finally found the Schulz speech, but i suggest you to read the whole thing, so you can finally compare Di Pietro and Roman intervents with Schulz one.

Originally posted by BeBro
Maybe I´m a Nazi too, who knows?

Now, this is simply absurd, you've to make a choice, you say that Schulz was only attacking Berlusconi (this is not true, but let's say for hypothesis that you're right) and so, you say, it's a nonsense that i feel personally attacked, but then Berlusconi answered attacking Schulz, and now you act as if Berlusconi was attacking all German people.
Decide: attacking a man in a parliament means attacking only that man or also the people he represents? the answer can't be "it depends if the attacked is italian or german" as you seems to think

Originally posted by BeBro
And I hate to break it to you, but simply posting things proves nothing. It would be nice if you´d try to argue too.

Yes, of course a guy who started a thread with the title " Berlusconi now completely mad - should Germany invade? "
followed by the body "Seems this Berlusconi guy has forgotten who saved Italy´s leader in 1943 But this time it wouldn´t be a friendly takeover" is in the correct position to teach others how to argue

Originally posted by BeBro
Oh, and please do not opress me by telling me to shut up - denying my right to free speech sounds Nazi-like

I just gave you a suggestion, and since now it's clear that you hadn't read the Schulz speech when you posted your thread i was right: i simply suggested you to read the whole thing before talking about it (in fact i didn't say "Shut up!" but "if you .... blah blah", there's a difference, can you see it?)

Originally posted by BeBro
Where exactly did you explain why Schulz is a Nazi? And how? What exactly is the Nazi-like comment he made? Or do you think what the said about your ministers (low IQ) is Nazi-like? So people cannot say others are stupid without being Nazis?

Also, how come that the majority in the EP thinks Schulz is not a Nazi? Are they all idiots or Nazis too?

Strange requests from one who said two posts ago to have understood the irony...

Originally posted by BeBro
You can use whatever you want. Not that it would make your "arguments" better....

Thank you for your kind permission...
(BTW, again, that small icon on the top left of the thread is supposed to express my dislike about Schulz speech...
Do you really think that just adding or not an icon could make someone arguments better? Wow, interesting theory... )

Originally posted by BeBro
Remember, the EP is a democratic institution. People can use polemics in a debate, that is standard tactics in any democratic country. So is criticism. Why is this a trap?

Where i said that it was an illegal way of conducting a debate? traps are a well known tactic in politics, you prepare a speech to provoke a political adversary trying to push him over the limit, usually the adversary is enough expert to avoid going down to the same level, but Berlusconi (like i already wrote ) fell in it like a child.
You ask why it is a trap? Well, for example, because the speech ignored Berlusconi's talk, he talked about guidelines for Europe, he talked about middle east, he talked about ways to bring europe out of current economic stagnation, he talked about Constitutional treaty of the EU, and about a lot of other things really important for the European Union that will come, but Schulz (who probably prepared his trap several days before) simply ignored the speech and didn't say a single word about it, busy as he was bringing his attack.
Again (since it seems i've to repeat things two or three times to make you read them) i'm not saying it's illegal or something, if you don't like the term trap change it with another you like more, but the meaning remains the same.

Originally posted by BeBro
If Schulz said wrong things, Berlusconi had the chance to refute Schulz´attacks by proving they´re wrong or simply denying their truth - yet he decided to go into personal attacks. Unprofessional. And wrong, as long you cannot prove that Schulz is really a Nazi.

Guess what? i already said i agree, in fact, like i already wrote (yeah, let's write another time )

...anyway this doesn't mean that Berlusconi was allowed to go down at the same level of that guy.

Originally posted by BeBro
Acording to this CNN story http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europ...ress/index.html , the echo to Berlusconi´s comment is almost completely negative. Why is there no outcry about Schulz, when his comments were so evil?

Because, like i already said, in EP words weights more than concepts, Berlusconi used words unallowed in European Parliament, while Schulz expressed the concept that Italy is worse than a neo-nazi government (comparing it with Haider and asking himself if Italy is still a member of european union)

Originally posted by BeBro
Besides, the tone was really insulting only when referring to Bossi (he was the one whose IQ was made fun of).

And then how is that he used the term ministries instead of Bossi?
i don't know, why he didn't say:
"You are not responsible for the IQ of Bossi, but for what he say" (BeBro translation)
I definitely support a similar statement (Bossi is an idiot, but fortunately he's just ministry of reforms and not ministry of immigration as wrongly said Schulz, this means that he has the same power of an hypothetical ministry of good weather...) but he used another statement... one may wonder why...

That is not an attack against Italians or Italian minister in general. That is not racist or Nazi-like at all.
[...]
Lastly, I see nowhere any hint of an insult towards the Italians.

BeBro, translate it all if you dare, especially the parts in which Schulz ridiculize italian delegation and italian historical people comparing Berlusconi, Fini, Frattini to Del Piero or Garibaldi and Cavour to Maldini, yes, it showed extreme respect for italians...
Or what about that part in which he said that italian government was worse than Haider
Or the point in which he ask himself if Italy is a member of the union since it doesn't comply with European Union's Charter of Fundamental Rights (which Italy wrote exactly as Germany, a thing that probably Schulz doesn't know).

Quote it fully, and translate it correctly, compare it with others speechs using the link i
gave you and if you still can't see the contempt about Italy (not just Berlusconi, i don't mind) then it's your problem, not mine.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
What I fear the most is the possibility of Berlusconi becoming President of the Repubblic (the position Ciampi is holding right now), becase after holding such a position you become a senator for life, and therefore you have a life-immunity

I completely agree with your analysis Giovanni, just a correction about immunity, the point is that in Italy there's NO immunity for members of parliament, it was removed during "Mani Pulite" in '93 and was never re-enacted, so even if Berlusconi became senator for life he don't get life-immunity (see Andreotti), the current immunity law ("lodo Maccanico") re-enacted it only for president of Republic, prime minister and presidents of chambers. (and another correction, immunity for parliament members (which Italy currently doesn't have) doesn't mean that, since you're a senator for life, justice can't touch you, it just mean that judges must be authorized by a parliament vote to act, so, even if Berlusconi became senator for life, eventually he'll lost the elections and judges will be able to obtain the ok from the parliament, and BTW, a thing that obviously Schulz didn't know is that this is the same immunity law acting for each member of EU...)

You know what makes me angry? the fact that with this story of Berlusconi people out there thinks that Italy is a strange kind of Orwellian country with Berlusconi as the Big Brother and our democratic institutions there just as an empty signs of the past, this, for everyone who live in Italy, is obviously a fake, but out there there's someone that believes it!

Our Republic survived "first republic", survived Red Brigate, survived mafia, survived "Mani Pulite"'s shock and even survived Scalfaro ().
I think that it can survive Berlusconi too...

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Angelo Scotto

BeBro, translate it all if you dare, especially the parts in which Schulz ridiculize italian delegation and italian historical people comparing Berlusconi, Fini, Frattini to Del Piero or Garibaldi and Cavour to Maldini, yes, it showed extreme respect for italians...
Or what about that part in which he said that italian government was worse than Haider

Since you claim Schulz speech is Anti-Italian in general, and he´s a racist etc. it is your task to provide evidence for your claims.

And he didn´t said the Italian government is worse than Haider. He said Bossi is (just before he talked about Berlusconis ministers). Seems you don´t know Schulz´ speech either....

But if it floats your boat, continue your little crusade, it is somehow amusing....

[Sloth]

Originally posted by Angelo Scotto

that Italy is a strange kind of Orwellian country with Berlusconi as the Big Brother and our democratic institutions there just as an empty signs of the past,

Unfortunately this picture is largely true

Berlusconi IS making a mockery of our democratic system.

What makes me sad is the fact that for all the fuss about Berlusconi calling someone a Nazi....it doesn't surprise me at all! The Italian opposition is used to be called Talibans, terrorists, Stalinists etc, usually just for stating FACTS!!!!!

[Sloth]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Do you think Berlusconi and his party will win the next Elections?

If the center/left manages to stay unite not a chance in the world. A big if, though.