Hamas Set to Declare 3 Month Truce

[Az]

Does he personally lead the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or is he a distant figurehead? Surely it would be more sensible to try and negotiate with someone close to the organisation than somebody with no power over it?

I am sorry. He's currently under trial, in jail.

[Az]

Originally posted by Sandman
Ah touche. But since you're negotiating, you might as well negotiate with those with their fingers on the trigger, rather than someone who doesn't. Unless of course, the negotiations are designed to fail, in order to keep up appearances.

Wtf should Israel negotiate with those who's goal is it's distruction? to get a "reccess" like Abbas is try to do now?

Israel tries to find someone who can:
a) Accept Israel.
b) be in charge of the palestinians.

And Abbas is the best looking candidate for now.

People have negotiated peace after far bloodier wars than the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Yes. And usually one side lost. So far, Israel is winning, by far. The Israeli population has been largely shielded from the war, and it's economy was hit relativly little. The Palestinians ARE in trouble, as Abu Mazen said to Hamas during negotiations. ( quite an interesting read, btw )

[Sandman]

Even if you want to believe that he has no control over these groups now, that certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago, when Israel began to negotiate with him.

I am sorry. He's currently under trial, in jail.

Ok, so negotiate (or at least try) with the other two.

[Nubclear]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hamas Set to Declare 3 Month Truce

YOU PROVIDE NOTHING!!! and yet you want to destroy israel....you criminal

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Azazel
People willing to blow themselves up was never the problem, as I said.

I didn't see that...

Healthcare and Welfare? I guess we should also shower them with golden Rolex watches. Building rather than destroying houses is cute yet not related, since palestinians do their own building, and destroying the homes of a couple of terrorists is hardly "violence against the Palestinian people".

Well, seriously, Palestine isn't quite independent yet, but the only thing Israel is doing is build a wall around it and run tanks and bulldozers through it. Dying Palestinians aren't allowed into an Israeli hospital, they're just left to die in the "inferior" Palestinian hospitals.
Can't the Israeli government help create a livable environment rather than destroy it.

Originally posted by PLATO1003
Only when the pals stop demanding "right of return", acknowledging an Israeli state, distributing monetary aid it receives to its people, and not destroying buildings or buses or whatever

That's all mostly the responsibility of the terrorist organisations.

[Az]

Well, seriously, Palestine isn't quite independent yet, but the only thing Israel is doing is build a wall around it

More like a wall from it.

and run tanks and bulldozers through it. Dying Palestinians aren't allowed into an Israeli hospital, they're just left to die in the "inferior" Palestinian hospitals.

Palestinians have been admitted to Israeli hospitals in numerous cases. Just some of the things you don't know.

Can't the Israeli government help create a livable environment rather than destroy it.

the Israeli government has no interest in the palestinians, and for the most part in the territories, either. It may sound shocking, but actually, it's natural. Every government cares for it's own.

Ok, so negotiate (or at least try) with the other two.

Which other two ? You mean Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

How the hell do you want Israel to negotiate on a PERMAMENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with organizations that want to destroy it?

[Sandman]

Wtf should Israel negotiate with those who's goal is it's distruction? to get a "reccess" like Abbas is try to do now?

Give them a non-pitiful state. If they keep attacking, you have a carte blanche to hit them hard. Hamas sometimes says that it would accept a withdrawal to the '67 borders, find out if they're being honest or if they're talking bollocks. Of course they also sometimes say that they want to drive the Israelis out, but the Israelis also sometimes express the same attitude regarding the Palestinians. The idea behind negotiation is to eliminate these extreme positions.

Yes. And usually one side lost. So far, Israel is winning, by far. The Israeli population has been largely shielded from the war, and it's economy was hit relativly little. The Palestinians ARE in trouble, as Abu Mazen said to Hamas during negotiations. ( quite an interesting read, btw )

Israel may be winning, but it can't concievably win.

[Az]

Anyway, it seems that we've got the Emperor on our side, and Europe will play ball against Hamas, too, if what I've recently heard is true.

WASHINGTON - U.S. President George W. Bush on
Wednesday demanded that Hamas and groups like it
be taken out of business, saying that only then
will there be "a chance for peace."




The president also reacted
skeptically to the reported
agreement of Palestinian
militants to halt attacks on
Israelis for three months.
"I'll believe it when I see
it," Bush said.

"The true test for Hamas and
terrorist organizations is the

complete dismantlement of their terrorist
networks, their capacity to blow up the peace
process," Bush said at a news conference with
European Union leaders.

Meanwhile, a statement by Palestinian Prime
Minister Mahmoud Abbas urged Bush to "exert the
necessary effort for the road map to be
implemented by both sides," and accused Israel
of dragging its feet by hesitating to pull back
forces.

The two sides are holding meetings on an IDF
withdrawal from the northern Gaza Strip and the
West Bank city of Bethlehem.

"It's one thing to make a verbal agreement,"
Bush said. "But in order for there to be peace
in the Middle East, we must see organizations
such as Hamas dismantled, and then we'll have
peace, we'll have a chance for peace."

Hamas and the Islamic Jihad were among the
groups apparently signing on to the agreement.
An official with one of the groups, however,
said the deal was not final.

Bush said he did not know details of the
reported deal, but said he was dubious about
it, "knowing the history of the terrorists."

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said he
could not confirm the deal.

"Anything that reduces the level of violence is
a step in the right direction," said Fleischer
said. "But it's only a step."

Bush to EU: Cut funding for Hamas
Bush also urged European Union nations to cut
off funding for Hamas at his White House
meeting with EU officials.

Greek Prime Minister Costas Simitis told
reporters that Middle East peace was at the
"top of the list" of the talks between European
Union and Bush administration officials.

"I urge the leaders in Europe and around the
world to take swift, decisive action against
terror groups such Hamas, to cut off their
funding and... support, as the United States
has done," Bush told the news conference,
accompanied by Romano Prodi, president of the
European Commission, and Simitis, whose country
holds the rotating EU presidency.

The EU, United States, United Nations and Russia
jointly drafted the road map they hope will end
the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

It's good to see them come around. Someone has to tackle Hamas, and if it's not going to be the PNA, It will be Israel.

[Sandman]

How the hell do you want Israel to negotiate on a PERMAMENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with organizations that want to destroy it?

Round a table with flowers, with every delegate having their own bottle of Evian.

Seriously, to take the Palestinian side:

How the hell do you want Hamas and Islamic Jihad to negotiate on a PERMANENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with a government that includes people who want to expel every last Palestinian from their homes?

Remember, if they keep attacking Israel even after a generous settlement, then Israel has a legitimate casus belli.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Azazel
Palestinians have been admitted to Israeli hospitals in numerous cases. Just some of the things you don't know.

Yes... I figured that BBC documentary I saw this week was just anti-semitic propaganda.
(What I'm trying to say is... you're probably right, but there are also a lot of things happening that aren't very kosher. And the Israeli guards seem to be very trigger-happy at times.

the Israeli government has no interest in the palestinians, and for the most part in the territories, either. It may sound shocking, but actually, it's natural. Every government cares for it's own.

Maybe they should have some interest. Just like the US is showing some effort trying to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Az]

Originally posted by Sandman


Round a table with flowers, with every delegate having their own bottle of Evian.

Seriously, to take the Palestinian side:

How the hell do you want Hamas and Islamic Jihad to negotiate on a PERMANENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with a government that includes people who want to expel every last Palestinian from their homes?

no it doesn't. It's not that Hamas are a closed and a paranoid group. They're very much aware of what the Israeli society and government want, do, etc.

Remember, if they keep attacking Israel even after a generous settlement, then Israel has a legitimate casus belli.

Yay, because everyone really cares about International Law!! Maybe they'll send us some peacekeepers to protect us, just like they protected us in Lebanon!

Noone seemed to care about it in 67', when Israel's route to Iranian oil was cut for weeks. Even today, a major newspaper such as the guardian refers to it as a "preemptive" strike, as if it wasn't really preemptive.



As always, Israel had to do the job by itself.

(What I'm trying to say is... you're probably right, but there are also a lot of things happening that aren't very kosher. And the Israeli guards seem to be very trigger-happy at times.

Of course, some bad **** happens. Just look at the UK soldiers in Iraq. Heck, they just opened live fire on a crowd!

Maybe they should have some interest. Just like the US is showing some effort trying to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq.

US is showing that effort, because it wants to control them afterwards. We don't want to control them, we don't want to do anything with them. That wall is also very simbolic as of what do we want our relationship with them to look like. I, personally, agree with that position. I'd rather be more like the west than the arab world.