Hamas Set to Declare 3 Month Truce

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel
oh who cares... Hamas spokesman to Ynet, israel's leading news resource: "We'll take the time to regroup".

Until someone in the PA would actually move their asses against Hamas, I don't see an end to this.

Reports are that a PA general who reports to Dahlan says it will take 2000 men for him to control northern Gaza - which he has. Your govt seems to think Dahlan can maintain security, at least in Northern Gaza. Next step is to complete negotiations on the withdrawl, and hold the PA to action.

[Firelad]

Based on experience, I don't trust Israel to keep the ceasefire any more than Hamas... Both are a bunch of ****ers, and you'll never know when a bunch of settler bastards will go out a shootin' a bunch of guys working on an olive plantation, and then uprooting the olive trees and replanting them in the settlements for decoration.

[Whaleboy]

Ah!! Who says force doesn't work eh?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I have no sympathy for the Hamas butchers, but Israel has a nasty habit of trying to kill them with rockets while they are surrended by crowds or in buildings full of sleeping children. Israel's methods were clearly provocative, even if their initial targets were legitiamte.

the Hamas folks make it a point to stay surrounded by corwds and buildings. In most parts of the world, wanted insurgents go underground, use aliases, and their families learn to live without them. In Gaza Hamas leaders go about under their own names, traveling with their families. The entire Hamas strategy is based on taking advantage of the cost to Israel of using extreme methods. In response, as far as i can tell, Israel basically does a cost benefit analysis - how important is the target, versus the collateral damage. They went after Rantissi, apparently because he was involved in planning an entire campaign of attacks, and also, perhaps, because he was singlehandedly blocking the ceasefire negotiations.

[Sandman]

actually sandman, ive seen some people on the right question what Abbas brings to the table in this - I think its easier for Hamas to make concessions to him, than directly to Israel - he's a fig leaf for a Hamas surrender, from that point of view. and of course hes in a better position to press Europeans and Arabs to back off from supporting Hamas.

Well, you might be right, but I suspect that Abbas is just enjoying a honeymoon period which will fade away. Indeed, his appointment may have just made the PA more impotent.

Israel's already tried negotiating with Arafat.

I mean negotiate with Hamas, and the others, directly.

[Ming]

Let's tone it down folks...

[chequita guevara]

In the last couple of weeks, when Israel was firing rockets at these guys, they would fire a round, then wiat a little while while a gruop of people gathered round, then fired again, repeatedly, even up to the point that ambulances were arriving. Presumably after the first rocket strike, their target was either dead or getting the hell out of there.

Firing rockets after the first round is like the double suicide bombers who detonate a second explosive after aid arrives. There is absolutely no justification for it.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Sandman

I mean negotiate with Hamas, and the others, directly.

Except that Arafat is the leadership for Fatah and Al Aqsa, and negotiating with him served little except to make the situation worse in the long run.

[Az]

Originally posted by Sandman
Israel should start negotiating with the terrorists, and not with the pointless middleman that is the PA.

Should the US negotiate with Al-Quida? Should Churchill negotiate with Hitler?

One must hope for the sake of the Palestinian people, that Hamas doesn't represent their will, because if it does, then god have mercy on the thousands of them that will die in the next couple of years.

I have no sympathy for the Hamas butchers, but Israel has a nasty habit of trying to kill them with rockets while they are surrended by crowds or in buildings full of sleeping children. Israel's methods were clearly provocative, even if their initial targets were legitiamte.

Statistics say that in 25% of such killings by Israeli helicopters, innocent people die. And it's a well-documented fact that the reaction would be the same whether or not innocents would be killed: hell, in an attempted arrest of a high-ranking terrorist a week ago, a shootout with Israeli soldiers errupted, and he was killed, him and only him. Powell responded to this by saying that "He's greatly concerned by Israel's killing of innocent civilians" . Hamas vowed revenge, as always.

This notion that such actions infuriate a peaceful Hamas are rediculous, because Hamas is not peaceful. The notion that such actions drive people to make suicide bombers is also rediculous, since suicide bombers were always plentyful in the territories, even when there were no open hostilities ( remember the 90s? ). The bottleneck of suicide bomber activity is not cannon-fodder manpower, but the preparation of "kits", and the organization of transportation, infiltration, etc.

Reports are that a PA general who reports to Dahlan says it will take 2000 men for him to control northern Gaza - which he has. Your govt seems to think Dahlan can maintain security, at least in Northern Gaza. Next step is to complete negotiations on the withdrawl, and hold the PA to action.

One can hope, but since Abu-Mazen has told that he won't fight Hamas, it seems that it will amount to "please don't do it".

[Sandman]

Except that Arafat is the leadership for Fatah and Al Aqsa, and negotiating with him served little except to make the situation worse in the long run.

Does he personally lead the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or is he a distant figurehead? Surely it would be more sensible to try and negotiate with someone close to the organisation than somebody with no power over it?

[Mercator]

When or why would Hamas ever stop its attacks?

I think they would only stop when they're entirely wiped out, which I think is a stretch and a near impossible task. Especially so because as long as the hate remains there will be people willing to blow themselves up.

The other option would be when they lose support among the Palestinian population... And remember, it's a war, and the terrorists are the only "military" the Palestinians have. How many of you Americans supported your troops in Iraq (even when you didn't actually support the war)?

Only when Israel starts making concessions, e.g. by removing settlers, acknowledging a Palestinian state, starting wellfare and healthcare programs and building rather than destroying houses or whatever, can they ever achieve that.

[Az]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In the last couple of weeks, when Israel was firing rockets at these guys, they would fire a round, then wiat a little while while a gruop of people gathered round, then fired again, repeatedly, even up to the point that ambulances were arriving. Presumably after the first rocket strike, their target was either dead or getting the hell out of there.

I had an argument with an Israeli guy on another forum, a right-winger, that claimed that the Helicopter pilots are actually pro-hamas, and miss on purpose. To each his own, I guess.

Oh, and any link to that "continuing firing while ambulances are arriving"?

I think they would only stop when they're entirely wiped out, which I think is a stretch and a near impossible task. Especially so because as long as the hate remains there will be people willing to blow themselves up.

People willing to blow themselves up was never the problem, as I said.

The other option would be when they lose support among the Palestinian population... And remember, it's a war, and the terrorists are the only "military" the Palestinians have. How many of you Americans supported your troops in Iraq (even when you didn't actually support the war)?

erm, this is not really correct. The largest forces are still commanded by the PA.

Only when Israel starts making concessions, e.g. by removing settlers, acknowledging a Palestinian state, starting wellfare and healthcare programs and building rather than destroying houses or whatever, can they ever achieve that.

Israel has repeatedly acknowledged a Palestinian state. removement of settlers was done on a simbolic basis, to show good will to the PA, and more would've been done, if things were humming along from the other side. The other side is currently busy sorting out his own ****.
Healthcare and Welfare? I guess we should also shower them with golden Rolex watches. Building rather than destroying houses is cute yet not related, since palestinians do their own building, and destroying the homes of a couple of terrorists is hardly "violence against the Palestinian people".

[Edan]

Originally posted by Sandman


Does he personally lead the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or is he a distant figurehead? Surely it would be more sensible to try and negotiate with someone close to the organisation than somebody with no power over it?

Even if you want to believe that he has no control over these groups now, that certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago, when Israel began to negotiate with him.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Mercator
Only when Israel starts making concessions, e.g. by removing settlers, acknowledging a Palestinian state, starting wellfare and healthcare programs and building rather than destroying houses or whatever, can they ever achieve that.

Only when the pals stop demanding "right of return", acknowledging an Israeli state, distributing monetary aid it receives to its people, and not destroying buildings or buses or whatever

[Sandman]

Should the US negotiate with Al-Quida? Should Churchill negotiate with Hitler?

Ah touche. But since you're negotiating, you might as well negotiate with those with their fingers on the trigger, rather than someone who doesn't. Unless of course, the negotiations are designed to fail, in order to keep up appearances.

People have negotiated peace after far bloodier wars than the Israel-Palestine conflict.