On human nature-the end of capitalism-communism

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Yes we are talking apples and oranges. I am talking primarily to those folks the commies are trying to endear themsleves to. And to those blue collar and white collar corps. the above applies.

I agree that small business owners and folks with much more vested interests in a business success act in much more passioned ways, but again the individual (in most circumstances) at this point has tied his sense of worth to the success of the business hence his passion about its success (i.e. it's money making ability).

Regardless, I agree that the communist system does not reconcile either the need to succeed through competition nor the need to achieve individual self worth.

communism has also not reconciled a way to stand toe to toe w/ capitalism. which of course makes it very hard on the communist nation to keep things like its skilled labor. not withstanding some authoritarian means of merely not letting them leave.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I'll let the commies handle that one.

But I expect either the normal "Your using the existing bastardized model of the USSR and China, thats not true communism!" or " You haven't said anything that hasn't been said before in the three previous threads!" sentiment from any of the regulars.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I already said I'm not going into a rehash of what Vel already taught you.

Agreed it is old, so move on.

Vel taught me to expect nothing but absurdities and strawman arguments from the right.

[Kidlicious]

About monetary incentives. Higher monetary incentives usually have a reverse effect, at least as far as the overall effect. People with high incomes tend to work less and/or retire early, because they tend to make a trade off for leisure time.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Regardless, I agree that the communist system does not reconcile either the need to succeed through competition nor the need to achieve individual self worth.

There is no such need to succeed through competition. There are plenty 'losers' who survive without that. As far as individual achievement, that doens't have to meand increasing ones wealth. It can mean all kinds of things. Becoming wealthy is just one of those and probably one that is not very important except in a society that conditions people to place so much self-worth on personal income and wealth.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Kidicious
About monetary incentives. Higher monetary incentives usually have a reverse effect, at least as far as the overall effect. People with high incomes tend to work less and/or retire early, because they tend to make a trade off for leisure time.

u mean ppl work so hard or their work is so valuable that they are able to stop early? yah thats horrible, die evil capitalism for rewarding hard work or creativity like that.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by yavoon


u mean ppl work so hard or their work is so valuable that they are able to stop early? yah thats horrible, die evil capitalism for rewarding hard work or creativity like that.

How is retiring early or working less hours working hard?

[yavoon]

ur confusing length w/ how hard or smart someone works. if a lawyer(or neone) wants to retire early and has worked hard or smart enuff to be able to do so. its hardly a travesty. and is definitely not in ne way shape or form a "problem w/ capitalism."

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by yavoon
ur confusing length w/ how hard or smart someone works. if a lawyer(or neone) wants to retire early and has worked hard or smart enuff to be able to do so. its hardly a travesty. and is definitely not in ne way shape or form a "problem w/ capitalism."

First, you are not looking at the big picture. So what if they work hard. Why should we encourage them to quit early or work less? If they work hard we should want them to work hard longer.

Second, people don't usually get raises because their boss wants them to work harder. They get raises because their boss does not want them to quit and go work somewhere else for more money.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Kidicious


First, you are not looking at the big picture. So what if they work hard. Why should we encourage them to quit early or work less? If they work hard we should want them to work hard longer.

Second, people don't usually get raises because their boss wants them to work harder. They get raises because their boss does not want them to quit and go work somewhere else for more money.

typical communist ideals of forcing ppl to act in the groups interest. sure why shouldn't genius' work for minimum wage 15 hours a day till they're 75?

no1 can force u to work. u r paid according to ur value. that is how life works. that is a good way for life to work. I hardly want your communist ass telling me "I'm too valuable to quit working." hahaha.

[Saras]

Why don't the commies want to let consenting adults no negotiate and agree on things?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by yavoon


typical communist ideals of forcing ppl to act in the groups interest. sure why shouldn't genius' work for minimum wage 15 hours a day till they're 75?

no1 can force u to work. u r paid according to ur value. that is how life works. that is a good way for life to work. I hardly want your communist ass telling me "I'm too valuable to quit working." hahaha.

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[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Kidicious
About monetary incentives. Higher monetary incentives usually have a reverse effect, at least as far as the overall effect. People with high incomes tend to work less and/or retire early, because they tend to make a trade off for leisure time.

But those few who get that wealthy are far in the minority. And for someone to get like that, they probably had to make some pretty awesome contributions to the society before leaving it for the easy life.

Ive been completely unimpressed by the pro-communism arguements. From what I know of human nature, they just dont seem to work.


Here is what i do know. I am lazy as hell. slack every moment i get. However, i am also greedy as hell. I want money, and as a consequence i am going to college and working pretty hard as a means to that end. If i lived in a communist state, I, and every single person I know for that matter, would slack our butts off and mooch every bit we could. I probably wouldnt bother with college, which doesnt help the society and sure as hell doesnt help me better myself.

balh blah blah, i can go on about this for hours. my point: capitalism works much better than communism, in my personal experience and everyone's i know, anyway.

[Saras]

An interesting debate could develop about what would be done with people like Kramerman and me who would completely hijack the communist system? Jail? Gulag? Brainwashing? Nothing?

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Saras
An interesting debate could develop about what would be done with people like Kramerman and me who would completely hijack the communist system? Jail? Gulag? Brainwashing? Nothing?

what do you mean? sry, im tired and slow tonight