Occupation of Iraq -- Where Is Europe?

[Paul Hanson]

And that's why I think Europe ought to have bases in the US, just like the US has bases in Europe.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by DanS
Mostly yes. But there would still be a difference in whether the US starts an illegal war of aggression with no clue what to do next while pissing on other countries, or not doing that.

That's a topic for another thread, though.

For the maybe 4th time, you can't separate the silliness of the Iraq adventure from the lack of inclination to send troops there.

It doesn't matter whether it is the way I describe it here, it's more than enough that it is overwhelmingly percieved that way here.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
In my opinion, this is due to a dynamic of politics that places very little importance on the military in general.

Indeed, military action seems to be seen with extreme caution / suspicion around here. Not because we think that "the Americans will clean up the mess eventually and we can happily welfare in the meantime" (this is simply a wrong assessment of the importance we give to the US). But because we think war/force is bad.

Don't get me wrong : the European public opinions were perfectly aware of what happened in Kosovo or Bosnia. The litany of massacres, mass-graves, snipers etc. filled the news every day. And the problem was that we feel powerless because no solution seemed to work. And indeed, we didn't want to imagine adding to the mess by sending more fighting troops there, i.e our own.

However, as much as Europeans are wary of peacemaking attempts, I don't see any significant trend to refuse doing peacekeeping, at least when it comes to causes we feel worth it (i.e not Iraq).
As there doesn't seem to be any threat from a military power over Europe right now, the mission of the militaries is often percieved to be anti-terrorism + peacekeeping; defense of the country isn't that important since there is no expected attacker.

The little emphasis we put on military seems to correspond well to Kagan's Europeans are from Venus.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Paul Hanson
And that's why I think Europe ought to have bases in the US, just like the US has bases in Europe.

Especially along the critical line between US and Canada.
Those Americans need our protection.

[HershOstropoler]

And we all know that Venus defeated Mars....

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
And we all know that Venus defeated Mars....

Love does conquer all.

[Paul Hanson]

And we sure as hell love Americans.

[PLATO]

Basically I think most of Europe lost the will to fight after WWI. I believe this is what lead to appeasement. Europe failed to react to German Agression until they were literally sitting on the doorstep of continental conquest. This trend appears to be continuing. It is if they have adopted Bradbury's Martian's attitude..."My fathers have labored and I am weary"

History has shown that neither Europe or the Us are wussies as some have suggested for each side. The capacity of these two to make war is simply unparralled. The difference may simply be that Europe has for centuries seen the destruction first hand, while the US has been largely isolated from it. It may also be that Europe is continuing its twentieth century philosophy to wait for trouble to find them and the US is continuing its late twentieth century philosophy to go and squash trouble before it finds them.

As far as divergent interests are concerned, I don't see a major difference on how each wants the world to work. The difference seems to be on how to accomplish this. Perhaps they will end up being smart enough to find a way to meld the two approaches to come up with a co-ordinated approach. The stopping of finger pointing would be a good start.

[Proteus_MST]

This may be right, Plato.

The USA seems to be a little bit more trigger-happy than Europeans are, because of the reasons you mentioned.
Therefore we (Europeans) need very good reasons to start a war (because we [i.e. our parents and or grandparents] have experiened firsthand what destruction and suffering for Civilians a war could bring).
For example Afghanistan was supported by a majority of the populace (despite there also were organized Protests from church groups and the like here in germany) and so it wasn´t such a big problem for the Bundesregierung to send peacekeeping troops to afghanistan (and do the jobs which, after the promises Bush made, actually should have been done by US Troops).
Iraq however is another story. A majority of the german population and also the german government opposed the war and saw those "Proofs" for WMDs in Iraq which Colin Powell put forward within the Security Council very sceptical and rather wanted the UN-Weapon Inspections to continue than go to war about it.
After all this Scepticism seems to be justified.
So there is absolutely no reason for Germany, France or Russia (who opposed the War path the USA follows) to station peacekeeping forces within Iraq.
We still have Peacekeeping Forces stationed in several Countries of Ex-Yugoslavia and also in Afghanistan, so no one can say that we shy from international responsibility, but we refrain from supporting unjustified wars (for example by using own troops to help in pacifying the country afterwards )

[PLATO]

I am not sure that support for the war and support for peacekeeping operations should be tied together Proteus. Weather or not you feel the war was justified, surely all now have an interest in a stable and viable Iraq emerging from it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
I am not sure that support for the war and support for peacekeeping operations should be tied together Proteus. Weather or not you feel the war was justified, surely all now have an interest in a stable and viable Iraq emerging from it.

Actually, I think the political opposition to the American adventure in Iraq blinds most people in Europe on the fact that we have the same interests with a stable Iraq.
BTW, I'm sure you'd have thousands of French peacekeepers in Iraq, if you gave us the right share of the loot

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
The difference may simply be that Europe has for centuries seen the destruction first hand, while the US has been largely isolated from it.

That's one aspect, the other is that our historical experiences as to what war achieves differ. For the US, it's mostly war of independence, war to keep the country together, WWII, maybe even WWI. For much of europe, WWI and WWII were just totally pointless destruction. And while WWII destroyed Nazism, it also left us with Stalinism right to the middle of the continent.

"Weather or not you feel the war was justified, surely all now have an interest in a stable and viable Iraq emerging from it."

Yes, but even without spicing up the wording as I usually do: It's not going to happen under those circumstances, and there's nothing we can do to change it.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'm sure you'd have thousands of French peacekeepers in Iraq, if you gave us the right share of the loot

If I wasn't in such a reconciliatory mood, then I would add that one to my sig line!

Actually, I think the political opposition to the American adventure in Iraq blinds most people in Europe on the fact that we have the same interests with a stable Iraq.

I wonder if a good word from Chirac here would be in order? It would be nice if he would use his self appointed European Leadership for a positive step here

[Sandman]

Hand over the administration of Iraq to the United Nations, and then there'll be plenty of countries willing to supply troops.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Sandman
Hand over the administration of Iraq to the United Nations, and then there'll be plenty of countries willing to supply troops.

Yes, I think also Germany would provide troops under those circumstances.

@Plato
Yep, a stable Iraq is also in our interest, but to many people it would seem like we legitimize the war afterwards if we send peacekeeping troops into Iraq.
Therefore handing the administration of Iraq to the UN could help, because after all the UN is respected here in Germany and would be seen as a legitimate Interim government (til the people of Iraq are able to create their own permanent government)