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Occupation of Iraq -- Where Is Europe?

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  • #1

    Occupation of Iraq -- Where Is Europe?

    Here is an interesting article about how much European countries are contributing to the occupation of Iraq. In short, not much, except Britain. The Netherlands is also contributing a good amount for its size.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19573-2003Jun21.html?nav=hptop_ts


    On the one hand, I would agree that this is primarily just a function of how this war played out. It wasn't popular in Europe and leaders can't take the political hit to send troops. However, on the other hand, it shows that even those who supported us on this aren't willing to send many troops because of cost or capability.

    The most interesting thing for me that this points out is the scarcity of political will to support anything militarily in Europe. There has been a lot of talk about how Europe focuses on peacekeeping and the US on warmaking, but this shows that Europe doesn't even have the will for peacekeeping. For instance, France had a tough time putting together 1,000 troops for the Congo.

    The conclusion that I'm forced to come to is that Europe on the whole is demobilizing to the point where it will be impossible for it to act in any meaningful way outside of its borders, and that the US wish that Europe would spend something like 2.5% of its economy on the military is a fantasy. It may fly in the UK and France, but that's about it.
    Last edited by DanS; June 22, 2003, 16:43.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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  • #2
    The US certainly can not want the troops of stoddy OLD Europe, after all, they are Old. Too bad most states in New Europe aren't very interested in the thing either (two bad in two of the biggest New countries, Italy and Spain opposition to the war was some of the highest).

    I think Europe goes by the You broke it, you pay for it notion. It was the US's (and UK's) war, so why should they participate now?
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
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    • #3
      You're missing the point, GePap. Even if Europe wanted to participate, it doesn't have the capability because of a lack of long-term political will. Europe has totally demobilized.
      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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      • #4
        Nice troll, but a bit too run-of-the-mill.
        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HershOstropoler
          Nice troll,
          How is it a troll?
          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
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          • #6
            I'm tempted to say that it's more a lack of force-projection capability; most European militaries are designed for national defence (although I personally don't see what we have to defend ourselves from nowadays), and very few nations have the ability to ferry large numbers of troops across the world.

            Not that I'm discounting the political motivation factor, but I don't think it's the only reason.
            "Paul Hanson, you should give Gibraltar back to the Spanish" - Paiktis, dramatically over-estimating my influence in diplomatic circles.

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            • #7
              How is this a troll? It fits right into our discussion of Robert Kagan's Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus. One of the thoughts was that Europe sees the value in peacekeeping, but not warmaking.

              It's clear to me that Kagan is wrong. Europe doesn't even want to peacekeep.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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              • #8
                "but this shows that Europe doesn't even have the will for peacekeeping."

                What peacekeeping? We're talking about occupation of a ****hole that your proconsuls are making even worse. It would be political madness to send troops there.

                "The conclusion that I'm forced to come to is that Europe on the whole is demobilizing to the point where it will be impossible for it to act in any meaningful way outside of its borders"

                Demobilizing?
                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                • #9
                  Would you just be quiet, Roland. I'm trying to promote a discussion here.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                  • #10
                    The numbers sent, even by Britain, are paltry, purely for the purposes of window dressing. Why should indifferent countries be expected to contribute troops for what is essentially a PR stunt?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DanS
                      I'm trying to promote a discussion here.
                      No, you're trying to promote a funny worldview here.
                      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                      • #12
                        Europe decided sometime ago to spend their money on welfare programs and to let the Yankees worry about military defence. I guess they figure that if the **** really hits the fan they could always just go running to Washington for help. Still, even with Iraq aside, it would be nice if the contental powers would start carrying their own weight.
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                        • #13
                          The numbers sent, even by Britain, are paltry, purely for the purposes of window dressing.

                          I don't think Britain's numbers are paltry. 20,000 troops is an honest number--a little more than half as many as the US has there on a per capita basis. Neither are the troops that the Netherlands is sending paltry. Or Denmark, for that matter, considering its size.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                          • #14
                            Hmm. Seems some people honestly believe in the "coalition of the willing".

                            "Coalition of the willing to support an act of aggression", more like it.

                            Of course Europe isn't geared up for peacekeeping. It's too expensive.
                            No European political part is going to campaign on a platform of "let's cut the social spending and build a bigger, better army". They'd lose any election going.

                            Call it a byproduct of democracy.
                            Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
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                            • #15
                              The whole idea of europe participating in the occupation Iraq is ridiculous. Name one reason for doing so.
                              “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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