Christianity Corner - Resurrection

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Sava
The belief in a higher power isn't necessary mistaken... just unprovable. But since one cannot see evidence of such a beings active influence... to extrapolate upon that belief would be wrong.

no it wouldn't

do you have any concept of what is classified as wrong?

Jon Miller

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Jesus being one with God was a result of him being God's son and a divine person, and the perfect life flowed from that. It is not the other away around, he did not start as a human and become one with God as a result of that. It's kind of important to being a Christian.

Actually we all start as both members of humanity and being one with God, as we get older though, we become too interested in silly things , like money, and possessions and so forth. Jesus was unique in that he managed to overcome such things and stay focused on what mattered. That may contradict tradtional christian thought somewhat, so feel free to disagree with me.

[Jon Miller]

I am a Scientist

I well know what is required for evidence and the like

saying that an occurance requires no extra (non-pragmatic) beleif beyond that of an earlier assumption is right

your statement of the lack of evidence is making claims that are outside of the realm of science

as such, science says nothing about it

Jon Miller
extended reply to post by Sava

[Shi Huangdi]

"So your definition of hell is complete seperation from God? Interesting, interesting. You're on your way. "

You know I am Catholic, don't you? That is pretty much the modern Catholic(and non-fundie protestant) way of defining hell.

"Man can't ever be seperated from God, as God is an intrinsic part of all of us."

We were meant with the purpose of being united with God, but we are not Gods ourselves, remember. God should be a part of our lives, but only Jesus was actually divine.

"But, in what could possibly be the closest thing to hell that we can experience, we desire to be seperate from God, because we are too ashamed to face him, although it's impossible to ever be completely seperate. "

You are correct for the most part here, it is not God who sends us to Hell, we send ourselves there, although throuh free will we can indeed cut ourselves off from God and our goodness.

"
As for people rejecting God, well, what makes you think people can reject God? "

Free will. It's be impossible to truly love God if you didn't have the option of hating him. You cannot really love something out of force, genuine love must be freely given. God purposely gave us free will, and we can choose to use it to love him and follow his teachings or not. Or we can choose to reject him, and we do reject him whenever someone gives into the power of hate and commits a grave evil(in Catholicsm known as a Mortal Sin, obiwan and I had a lengthy discussion on this in the other thread). If we continue in that evil and do not repent, than you have by your actions rejected God. Read the passage in Matthew about the Sheep and the Goats for more on this.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Sava
The belief in a higher power isn't necessary mistaken... just unprovable. But since one cannot see evidence of such a beings active influence... to extrapolate upon that belief would be wrong.

I know you're going to hate me for this Sav, old buddy, but that's not entirely accurate.
Believing in God doesn't require illogical faith in some unknowable, invisible figure. He's quite knowable, and all too obvious, if you know how to look for him.
I invite you to visit "the real world" someday, hopefully in this lifetime even, and perhaps your perceptions of what is knowable may be slightly altered.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by monkspider


Actually we all start as both members of humanity and being one with God, as we get older though, we become too interested in silly things , like money, and possessions and so forth. Jesus was unique in that he managed to overcome such things and stay focused on what mattered. That may contradict tradtional christian thought somewhat, so feel free to disagree with me.

Matthew 16:13-18

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:13-17

It's kind of more than just an enlightened individual, more of a father son thing here

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
"So your definition of hell is complete seperation from God? Interesting, interesting. You're on your way. "

You know I am Catholic, don't you? That is pretty much the modern Catholic(and non-fundie protestant) way of defining hell.

Ah, fair enough, fair enough. I don't mean to disagree with your teachings on purpose. I only ask this, that you always believe in whatever brings you closest to God.

We were meant with the purpose of being united with God, but we are not Gods ourselves, remember. God should be a part of our lives, but only Jesus was actually divine.

Oh, not Gods at all, not by any means! We are far more divine than we give ourselves credit though.

Free will. It's be impossible to truly love God if you didn't have the option of hating him. You cannot really love something out of force, genuine love must be freely given. God purposely gave us free will, and we can choose to use it to love him and follow his teachings or not. Or we can choose to reject him, and we do reject him whenever someone gives into the power of hate and commits a grave evil(in Catholicsm known as a Mortal Sin, obiwan and I had a lengthy discussion on this in the other thread). If we continue in that evil and do not repent, than you have by your actions rejected God. Read the passage in Matthew about the Sheep and the Goats for more on this.

Ah yes, free will, surely I must have forgotten about that.
Of course, we do have free will, it is essential to our learning process here on Earth. Yes, there are atheists and agnostics, and so on who do not believe in a deityor set of deities. But consider this, rejecting the various world religions does not translate to a rejection of God, and even if one does not believe in a God, he or she has not rejected God by any means. Are they mistaken? Well, yes. But can you really reject the computer screen you are typing on? Perhaps the trials and tribulations of life can be so stressing as to delude you into thinking it is not there, but it is. So, it is impossible to reject God. Morever, there are various important lessons that can be learned as an atheist or agnostic that perhaps wouldn't have been learned as a member of a religious sect. So, everything has a purpose, there are no coincidences, and even what seems to be a rejection of God may very well be part of God's plan in some way.

[Jon Miller]

I guess I agree with Monkspider and Shi

I beleive that you can totally reject God, but I don't beleive it is as simple as being an atheist

I think that there will be athiests in the earth made new (afterlife)

Jon Miller

[Sava]

I invite you to visit "the real world" someday, hopefully in this lifetime even, and perhaps your perceptions of what is knowable may be slightly altered.

@ that

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi



Matthew 16:13-18

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:13-17

It's kind of more than just an enlightened individual, more of a father son thing here

Actually, Jesus does not have a monopoly on being the son of God.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Sava


@ that

Ah, don't roll your eyes Sava. You misunderstand me. You're quite in touch with what virtually all of humanity considers the real world, that is, this life. You're the eternal pragmatist, remember?

I'm just saying that this may not necessarily be "the real world", and I invite you to visit it someday, nothing more.

[Shi Huangdi]

"Ah yes, free will, surely I must have forgotten about that.
Of course, we do have free will, it is essential to our learning process here on Earth. Yes, there are atheists and agnostics, and so on who do not believe in a deityor set of deities. But consider this, rejecting the various world religions does not translate to a rejection of God, and even if one does not believe in a God, he or she has not rejected God by any means. Are they mistaken? Well, yes. But can you really reject the computer screen you are typing on? Perhaps the trials and tribulations of life can be so stressing as to delude you into thinking it is not there, but it is. So, it is impossible to reject God. Morever, there are various important lessons that can be learned as an atheist or agnostic that perhaps wouldn't have been learned as a member of a religious sect. So, everything has a purpose, there are no coincidences, and even what seems to be a rejection of God may very well be part of God's plan in some way."

You said here you belive in free will, but the rest of your post contradicts that, IMHO. If all our lives is part of God's predestined plan, then we are but automatons. Having free will means you have the ability to make your own choices and choose your destiny.

"Yes, there are atheists and agnostics, and so on who do not believe in a deityor set of deities. But consider this, rejecting the various world religions does not translate to a rejection of God, and even if one does not believe in a God, he or she has not rejected God by any means."

I think you misunderstand what I mean by rejecting God. It does not nessecarily mean not believing in him, believing that only Christians can go to heaven is the province of the fundamentalists. There are atheists in heaven I am sure, and sadly there are probably people who called themselves Christians in Hell. (Jesus said that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven.) A real rejection of God is done through our actions. By choosing to give into the power of hate in spite of Jesus's message of love, we reject God.

To help further my point,

Matthew 25: 31-46

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

IMO this is perhaps the most important passage in the bible.

"
Actually, Jesus does not have a monopoly on being the son of God. "

Mmmhmm. And how many of us are born of a virgin and have our birth announced by the Archangel Gabriel?

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi

You said here you belive in free will, but the rest of your post contradicts that, IMHO. If all our lives is part of God's predestined plan, then we are but automatons. Having free will means you have the ability to make your own choices and choose your destiny.

Ah, not a contradiction, but a clarification, if you will. It's all very complicated, but while we do have free will, God will throw various lessons at us to help us learn lessons that will bring us closer to him. We do choose our destiny as you say, but God will help mold the events that shape our destiny.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by rejecting God. It does not nessecarily mean not believing in him, believing that only Christians can go to heaven is the province of the fundamentalists. There are atheists in heaven I am sure...

I'm impressed, that it is a pretty unpopular opinion to hold in some circles. Well done Shi, you could go far in this life.

A real rejection of God is done through our actions. By choosing to give into the power of hate in spite of Jesus's message of love, we reject God.

In that case, we are in agreement. It is certainly quite possible to drift far from God's perfection. If not, the world would not be in the miserable state of affairs that it is presently in.

Mmmhmm. And how many of us are born of a virgin and have our birth announced by the Archangel Gabriel?

Not very many, I will grant you that.

[Giant_Squid]

Black Dragon (note from about five minutes into writing the post: aack! I still called you that! Okay, I'm not correcting it and am leaving it as a testimonial to old times) , you say:

We were meant with the purpose of being united with God, but we are not Gods ourselves, remember. God should be a part of our lives, but only Jesus was actually divine.

But doesn't Jesus say in John 10:34:

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'

And doesn't the Psalmist have God say in 82:6:

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Jesus' title "the Son of God" is the sort of things that Greeks (which most of the early Christians happened to be) would instantly take literally because their gods tended to go around having sons and if you met someone really great like Achilles or Hercules or Aesclepius chances were they were the son of some god or other. On the other hand, the Bible tended to use the phrase rather differently - people called the Son of God include Adam (Luke 3:38), Ephraim (Jeremiah 31:9), Jacob (Exodus 4:22), Solomon (I Chronicles 22:10), and a whole host of groupings like the Nephilim (Genesis 6:2), the whole darned tribe of Israel (Deuteronomy 14:1), the angels (Job 1:6) and probably a few others that my source missed. Given that A, the Hebrews used "Son of God" in a loose sense, B, the Greeks used "Son of God" in a strict sense, C, Jesus was Hebrew, and D, most of the people who ended up writing this stuff down and interpreting it were Greek, it's pretty easy to see how there might've been a misinterpretation along the way.

And just to add to the semi-Biblical wackiness, why do you assume Heaven and Hell to be necessarily after-death states? Didn't Jesus say "the Kingdom of God is within you?" (I could give you more such sayings if you allow me to use ones from the Gospel of Thomas, which you proly won't)

[Shi Huangdi]

"We do choose our destiny as you say, but God will help mold the events that shape our destiny. "

If you really think that God molds our life and the events sorrounding it, I would ask you to check who the Bible calls the "Prince of This World"

"I'm impressed, that it is a pretty unpopular opinion to hold in some circles. Well done Shi, you could go far in this life."

Actually, I am again stating what is the official Catholic position.

"
In that case, we are in agreement. It is certainly quite possible to drift far from God's perfection."

Of course, and in drifting far from him we can cut ourselves off and reject him. The bible makes this clear with repeated references to eterenal punishment.

If you think about it, it would be impossible for there not to be a Hell if there is free will. No love can be real if not freely given, and should we choose not to love God by following his teachings, God certainly will not force us to be with him should we choose the path of evil.

Of course, from the Catholic perspective it is pretty hard to get there. First, you commit a gravely(seriously) evil action. You have to have full knowledge and consent to your act, you have to know what you are doing and give full assent to it, and you have to understand the evil nature of your act. Along the way there are any number of factors that can reduce your culpability for your act so it won't cut you off from God, such as psychological problems, economic distress, extreme immaturity, etc. Then, after doing this, putting you in a state of mortal sin, you have to not repent of your action ever, remaining hard hearted and impenitent until the end and never returning to God.

"Not very many, I will grant you that. "

Only one, in fact. And hence only one son of God.