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  • We never depended on The Person To Whom You Refer to anywhere near the same degree you depend on J****.
    That is very true. What I am hoping here is that Jonno having served a full season with the national side for once – no injuries and no red mist suspensions this year so he played ten from ten - will have seasoned the younger lads and allowed them to really learn from him. I guess I’m hoping counter-intuitively that his constant presence may actually have helped lessen the reliance on him. Yeah I know it sounds strange. The point is we haven’t had to play any morale sapping tests with a Dill in charge – and the Dills next on line have had plenty of time to study the master at work.

    The thing is with our playing talent now, and the far better structured support and coaching setup, we should never fade totally away again. Well I can but hope.

    Ben Kay strikes me as a very good player, but, unless there's a side to him that I haven't seen, not a Leader Of Men as J**** is.
    He actually had a superb season captaining England A in 2002 but you are right he isn’t really in the frame at the moment. Then again he is only 27, the same age at which Martin had only just become club captain at Tigers (Lions and England skipper still in his future). I really would like to see them give the lad the role and I think it will be the making of him – but I’m hardly neutral.

    But internationally the boys really in the frame are the vice captains Vickery and Wilkinson. I’ve bemoaned Vickery before – he is only in the frame because of Glaws purple patch and he has never convinced me with his on field decision making. Wilko, well he has enough on his plate and I’m not sure I want him saddled with the Captaincy. Of the two, from what I’ve seen of the club captaincy from them, it has to be Wilko.

    Of course everything is cyclical, and England's turn at the top of cycle happens to coincide with a WRC year.
    As you know I’m just happy we have muscled into the cycle.

    Only a fool wouldn’t expect the tri-nation sides to return to the top at various points. Although the Boks have a huge amount of work to do at the moment.

    Gee, President Tony can't take much of a trick these days, can he? Rolled within his own party over fox hunting too?
    Okay a small aside into politics.

    For starters the Lords has not been dissolved but has been hugely changed in nature. It’s still an invitiational house but that is now solely down to political patronage and there are less delgates overall. What has happened is that the hereditary inbreds have been kicked out and can no longer thwart the will of the people – only these political appointees can now (some of which are still the self same inbreds). A very English revolution.

    It’s a fascinating place to be right now here in England. Even if the Lords bounce the bill again it’s reached the stage where Parliament can then impose it (the Lords cannot continually thwart the will of the Commons – they can send legislation back three times I believe then the metaphorical two finger are dtuick up by the ‘plebs’).

    Of course I live in a huge Fox hunting area so it’s particularly interesting for me. I’m against it by the way – I’m very well aware foxes need controlling (far too successful little animals) but Fox hunting has nothing to do with that and everything to do with social elitism. Weigh five men with guns against hundreds of nobs dressed to the nines on horseback – and they argue the hunt is the most efficient way of doing the job!

    And Alastair Campbell and the ‘apology’ argument? Tactical error by Tony. The British people largely have great affection for Auntie and it’s hard to see what they have done wrong when the Government refuses to give any proof of this 45 minute business – alledged to be made up by this one BBC source that Auntie is protecting (in the best journalistic practice). The same cannot be said of Campbell (former Mirror journo thought of as Tony’s 'King Spin'). Most of us are smart enough to realise Campbell is trying to deflect the questions about the 45 minute nonsense in the WOMD report presented to Parliament.

    This could really come back and bite Tony hard. Didn’t Watergate start from a smaller acorn than this?

    Sometimes I wish I were lazy enough to let some of those angry smilies through to the 'keeper.
    No one could stop them all. You make a great effort.

    Winning with grace makes it much easier to lose with grace.
    I can almost see the feeding frenzy down there should we lose.

    Mmmm. These things are never a one-way street. I wonder who initiated it.
    Indeed. You are suggesting who had the most to gain?

    No more harsh than any hungry, bad-mannered lion would be with any pair of innocent baby zebras he stumbled across.
    At least he has left us in charge at the right time, our close season. As long as the A team doesn’t stuff up in Japan there should be little to hunt us with unless we bring it on ourselves of course.

    At the same time the tri-nations is about to start in earnest so there is plenty for us to put under the
    microscope.
    It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt

    Comment


    • Last post

      Originally posted by finbar
      Yes, I suppose between all that reading and all that thumbing through ton Petit Orphys there aren't enough hours left in the day for you to post!
      I only need le petit ophrys in the most delicate cases, I would rather incriminate the vast amount of rants than the complexity of the language used though I know you can baffle me very easily with a bit of slang or some literary words.

      Just watch me! When you get back ...
      I am already waiting for this moment and I have a little idea about the first post I will send as soon as I come back.

      A-ha! Laporte has called on your services to coach the team in your preferred Bronze Age brand of rugby!
      The only true one: its forwards, its scrums and mauls, its slim backs, its punches and general brawls... Aaaah! Good ol'time!


      A-ha! The master leaves the apprentices in charge of the fort.
      I am not a master!

      *finbar salivates and ties on his bib*
      Pull!

      How do you call that, shooting ducks in a barrel?


      No more harsh than any hungry, bad-mannered lion would be with any pair of innocent baby zebras he stumbled across.
      Fair enough... I take it as a promise you will respect this honorable limit.
      "Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the others that have been tried." Sir Winston Churchill

      Comment


      • By the way Tamerlin, whatever nefarious business is taking you away from the forum make sure you enjoy it fully.
        It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt

        Comment


        • Last last post

          I am going to the seaside (Collioure) with my kid...

          I hate the seaside...

          Fortunately this is before the great migration and thus the invasion of the area by hordes of uncouth tourists.

          See you later and... keep the flame. :salute: :trumpets:
          "Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the others that have been tried." Sir Winston Churchill

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Havak
            That is very true. What I am hoping here is that Jonno having served a full season with the national side for once – no injuries and no red mist suspensions this year so he played ten from ten - will have seasoned the younger lads and allowed them to really learn from him. I guess I’m hoping counter-intuitively that his constant presence may actually have helped lessen the reliance on him. Yeah I know it sounds strange. The point is we haven’t had to play any morale sapping tests with a Dill in charge – and the Dills next on line have had plenty of time to study the master at work.
            Yes, but you can't learn personality or presence. You can't learn to have the impact of two or three players. It's not a criticism, it just underlines the rarity of the inspirational leader.

            He actually had a superb season captaining England A in 2002 but you are right he isn’t really in the frame at the moment. Then again he is only 27, the same age at which Martin had only just become club captain at Tigers (Lions and England skipper still in his future). I really would like to see them give the lad the role and I think it will be the making of him – but I’m hardly neutral.
            Who knows? It depends what depths he has. I mean, The Sainted One Himself proved you don't need overt mongreldom to be an inspirational leader, et al.

            But internationally the boys really in the frame are the vice captains Vickery and Wilkinson. I’ve bemoaned Vickery before – he is only in the frame because of Glaws purple patch and he has never convinced me with his on field decision making. Wilko, well he has enough on his plate and I’m not sure I want him saddled with the Captaincy. Of the two, from what I’ve seen of the club captaincy from them, it has to be Wilko.
            Oh jeez, don't burden Wilkinson any more than he already would be without J**** in the team. If Dalaglio stays around, stays fit, and keeps his form, he could make a return, I suppose. I don't know what he's like tactically.

            It’s a fascinating place to be right now here in England. Even if the Lords bounce the bill again it’s reached the stage where Parliament can then impose it (the Lords cannot continually thwart the will of the Commons – they can send legislation back three times I believe then the metaphorical two finger are dtuick up by the ‘plebs’).
            It's about as silly as our Upper House (Senate). Ostensibly a States' House, with (from memory) 10 Senators from each state and territory, supposed, according to the constitution, to examine legislation from their various states' and territories' points of view. In reality, a carbon copy of the House of Reps, voting along party lines. As often as not, the balance of power in the Senate is held by a minor party with two members or an indendent, who hold the government of the day to ransom. Such is Democracy.

            Of course I live in a huge Fox hunting area so it’s particularly interesting for me. I’m against it by the way – I’m very well aware foxes need controlling (far too successful little animals) but Fox hunting has nothing to do with that and everything to do with social elitism. Weigh five men with guns against hundreds of nobs dressed to the nines on horseback – and they argue the hunt is the most efficient way of doing the job!
            Chinless, dribbling, gin-swilling nobs. Not to put too fine a point on it.

            This could really come back and bite Tony hard. Didn’t Watergate start from a smaller acorn than this?
            It will, eventually, come back to bite various leaders in various countries hard.

            Indeed. You are suggesting who had the most to gain?
            I don't know what the RFU had to gain.

            At least he has left us in charge at the right time, our close season. As long as the A team doesn’t stuff up in Japan there should be little to hunt us with unless we bring it on ourselves of course.
            Since when has there needed to be reason? Ask Tony Blair, et al.

            At the same time the tri-nations is about to start in earnest so there is plenty for us to put under the
            microscope.
            I shall treat it all in exactly the same manner I treat Tamerlin's posts. 'Nuff said.
            " ... and the following morning I should see the Boks wallop the Wallabies again?" - Havak
            "The only thing worse than being quoted in someone's sig is not being quoted in someone's sig." - finbar, with apologies to Oscar Wilde.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tamerlin
              Last last post

              I am going to the seaside (Collioure) with my kid...
              The image of Tamerlin lounging in a deck chair with his trousers rolled up to his knees, a knotted hanky on his head, reading his Petit Orphys, while the sprog wreaks havoc, will sustain me till his return.

              I hate the seaside...
              You and me both. I refuse to set foot in any water through which I can't see a clean, tiled bottom. If God had meant us to immerse ourselves in the ocean, we'd be Tuna.

              See you later and... keep the flame. :salute: :trumpets:
              Typical grenouille! Having the last word before he nicks off!
              " ... and the following morning I should see the Boks wallop the Wallabies again?" - Havak
              "The only thing worse than being quoted in someone's sig is not being quoted in someone's sig." - finbar, with apologies to Oscar Wilde.

              Comment


              • Oh, I almost forgot. The Brumbies exodus continues. Dan Vickerman has followed our Justin to the Waratahs, and another reserve lock, Pusey, is nicking off to Munster as an Irishman because a distant relative apparently once blew the froth off a glass of Guinness. Thus, in a blink, they've gone from a surfeit of locks, to David Giffen and I'm not sure who else. The Waratahs are also making another very big play for Matt Giteau, offering him what he can't have at the Brumbies - the flyhalf spot. Of course, everyone is denying the exodus is in any way related to dissatisfaction with the coach and management. Sides of bacon might fly.
                " ... and the following morning I should see the Boks wallop the Wallabies again?" - Havak
                "The only thing worse than being quoted in someone's sig is not being quoted in someone's sig." - finbar, with apologies to Oscar Wilde.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by finbar
                  Oh, I almost forgot. The Brumbies exodus continues. Dan Vickerman has followed our Justin to the Waratahs, and another reserve lock, Pusey, is nicking off to Munster as an Irishman because a distant relative apparently once blew the froth off a glass of Guinness.
                  In what has come as a bit of a surprise to many, Christian Cullen is also wandering over to Munster.
                  They must be in the middle of a big recruiting drive ...




                  Originally posted by Havak
                  Weigh five men with guns against hundreds of nobs dressed to the nines on horseback – and they argue the hunt is the most efficient way of doing the job!
                  While I'm not a great fan of hunting either, I tend to think there might be a teensy matter of your shire councils actually having to pay the five men with guns that would come into consideration.
                  I imagine the same isn't true of the latter method?
                  Besides which, it gives the peasants something to laugh at when the nobility make a great show of dressing up as complete twits and riding around with pomp and fanfare accomplishing next to nothing ... ...

                  Actually, I'll have to get back to you. I just have to find out about whatever it is those nobles would otherwise be doing.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ravagon


                    In what has come as a bit of a surprise to many, Christian Cullen is also wandering over to Munster.
                    They must be in the middle of a big recruiting drive ...
                    I imagine they've signed Cullen to replace another full back, Chris Latham, who had agreed to go to Munster but changed his mind.

                    Actually, I'll have to get back to you. I just have to find out about whatever it is those nobles would otherwise be doing.
                    Judging by the absence of chins and any semblance of intelligence, they would otherwise be doing it with very, very close relatives.
                    " ... and the following morning I should see the Boks wallop the Wallabies again?" - Havak
                    "The only thing worse than being quoted in someone's sig is not being quoted in someone's sig." - finbar, with apologies to Oscar Wilde.

                    Comment


                    • Bugger. George Smith is out of the Tri-Nations squad. Failed a fitness test on his neck-shoulder nerve damage. Daniel Heenan - Eales protégé - comes into the squad, probably as a trainee blindside. He played blindside for the A Team in Japan recently and that seems to be the future they have mapped out for him.
                      " ... and the following morning I should see the Boks wallop the Wallabies again?" - Havak
                      "The only thing worse than being quoted in someone's sig is not being quoted in someone's sig." - finbar, with apologies to Oscar Wilde.

                      Comment


                      • It's not a criticism, it just underlines the rarity of the inspirational leader.
                        I understand completely. It’s certainly true there is no like for like replacement evident in the ranks art the moment.

                        The only positive for them is that Jonno didn’t even become his club captain until he was 26 (it was Dean Richards before that). The Lions followed a few months later then in 99 Dally had the ‘unfortunate incident’ so he took the England helm at 29. There is therefore the potential for late bloomers with lads such as Kay.

                        Eales of course was a huge exception to the standard concept of a captain from the pack. Most locks would have a little aggression to their game but he had none at all. It was pure skills and commitment with the man – one has to admire it. There’s always the nagging doubt though – as good as he was would a little ‘eye glaze’ have made him better yet?

                        Dallaglio tactically? He makes some very ill considered decisions, seems prone to getting carried away and show boating rathering than just securing the win. He cost us a huge game with Wales in 1999 by refusing a kick at the posts at the death – and that’s just not acceptable for a national skipper.

                        The organisation of the Aussie Parliament does sound likes it mirrors ours somewhat – so you have my sympathy.

                        As for Fox hunting you got the tipple right. There’s talk of civil disobedience and threats of ‘it’s hard to arrest someone on a horse’. It’s going to be fun all right.

                        On the other point my primary concern if a Government sponsored report has been presented to parliament with a deliberate falsehood in it then the PM needs to apologise to the house for it and his Spin chief needs to fall on the sword for being so damn stupid.

                        I don't know what the RFU had to gain.
                        Therefore you were right when you hinted Clive may have prompted it.

                        The RFU may have gained stability. Clive was at best their fourth choice in 1997 – people kept turning them down and that may have left an impression on them?

                        I shall treat it all in exactly the same manner I treat Tamerlin's posts. 'Nuff said.
                        As Gospel?

                        Of course, everyone is denying the exodus is in any way related to dissatisfaction with the coach and management. Sides of bacon might fly.
                        Absolutely. When enough rats are fleeing the bilges there’s too much water there.

                        Who were the incumbent NSW locks? Looks like they are out on their ear then?

                        The Cullen business has surprised me though – so he is happy to call time on his ABs days without a further fight? He’s not that old is he?

                        The other surprising aspect if that the Irish provinces are meant to be in fiscal trouble – Munster seem intent on disproving that.

                        Actually, I'll have to get back to you. I just have to find out about whatever it is those nobles would otherwise be doing.


                        Sitting around all day attracting tourist to the realm if you believe their supporters.

                        There is a humourous element to the hunt (though never for the fox it has to be said). The Nobs know no better but the hunts consist mainly of middle class idiots climbing the social ladder (or trying not to slip).

                        I take the point about payment for the chaps with guns but it has to be said farmers have been doing that for years – and still cull more per annum than the hunt ever will and of course they are nowhere near such a pain in the butt to people trying to use the highways (the hunt expects right of way wherever it goes).

                        Time they let it pass into the history books (for me they could take royalty and aristocracy with them – stupid idea in a modern democracy).

                        And Finbar if Waughy has another big game I don’t expect even Smithy to walk straight back in. Nice to have him back on the bench though?
                        It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Havak

                          The Cullen business has surprised me though – so he is happy to call time on his ABs days without a further fight? He’s not that old is he?
                          I don't pretend to understand the IRB rules dealing with representing ones club (wherever that may be) and ones country (finbar has repeatedly pointed out the Fij, er, North Aucklanders playing for the Blues), so I have no idea whether he can still play for the AB's or not - in principle, but I can't really see any return to the black jersey in the near future unless he were to be picked based on his perfomance in Ireland - which would seem rather unlikely to say the least ...

                          Comment


                          • The ABs are like the Boks in that unless you play domestically in New Zealand you don't get picked? So Cullen leaving Kiwi country efectively discounts him.

                            I think the IRB need to look again at residency qualification - the ABs abuse it hugely and damage minor teams in the doing.

                            And the be fair the practicalities of picking a player form another hemisphere are not easy anyway. So it does rather look like he has hung up the black shirt for good.
                            It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Havak
                              There’s always the nagging doubt though – as good as he was would a little ‘eye glaze’ have made him better yet?
                              You can't improve on perfection, you know that.

                              Dallaglio tactically? He makes some very ill considered decisions, seems prone to getting carried away and show boating rathering than just securing the win. He cost us a huge game with Wales in 1999 by refusing a kick at the posts at the death – and that’s just not acceptable for a national skipper.
                              Oh well, as big an idiot on the field as he is off the field. Pity.

                              As for Fox hunting you got the tipple right. There’s talk of civil disobedience and threats of ‘it’s hard to arrest someone on a horse’. It’s going to be fun all right.
                              Line the bastards up against their hedgerows and shoot them.

                              On the other point my primary concern if a Government sponsored report has been presented to parliament with a deliberate falsehood in it then the PM needs to apologise to the house for it and his Spin chief needs to fall on the sword for being so damn stupid.
                              Absolutely. The excuse here, of course, will be that they were only passing on what they were told.

                              The RFU may have gained stability. Clive was at best their fourth choice in 1997 – people kept turning them down and that may have left an impression on them?
                              So if he goes if they lose the WRC, which I bet he will, what happens to their stability then? A really silly exercise all round, I'd've thought.

                              As Gospel?
                              M-hm. In his absence, you're taking over as the dispenser of nonsense? I'm waiting with bated breath for the first you-know-what smilie, too.

                              Absolutely. When enough rats are fleeing the bilges there’s too much water there.
                              I think I passed on the rumours earlier in the season. It's all coming true.

                              Who were the incumbent NSW locks? Looks like they are out on their ear then?
                              Tom Bowman, a loyal and hard-working servant, and various partners - Van Harrison, and I've forgotten the others. If our Justin pulls his finger out, he and Vickerman will bring some class to the pack.

                              The Cullen business has surprised me though – so he is happy to call time on his ABs days without a further fight? He’s not that old is he?
                              I'm not in the least bit surprised. I think he knew the writing was on the wall as long ago as last season when he lost his permanent fixture status. I do love his nickname - Bottle. Because he's empty from the neck up.

                              The other surprising aspect if that the Irish provinces are meant to be in fiscal trouble – Munster seem intent on disproving that.
                              I don't know who else they plan to sign, but Cullen would only get the funds earmarked for Latham. Pusey, the Brumbies' back-up lock, wouldn't be in a position to ask for a vast sum.

                              And Finbar if Waughy has another big game I don’t expect even Smithy to walk straight back in. Nice to have him back on the bench though?
                              It was a big surprise that he failed the fitness test. I'd've thought they would've been monitoring him. I'm not sure if anyone yet knows how long he will miss, but I'm quite sure he'll come back into the squad if he recovers in time. Obviously it gives Waugh even more chance to cement himself. Ironically, Eddie was only talking on the TV rugby show the other week about playing them both and having Smith develop his jumping to use him in the lineout. He jumped for the Brumbies in his early days, under Eddie, and showed ability, apparently.

                              Oh, and I heard an interesting item on the World Service the other night. In your country, the way the trend is heading, the average male will outlive the average female, a reversal of the traditional situation. The experts put it down to females in your country drinking more, and leading sedentary lifestyles. So what's it like to be a role model for the females in your country?
                              " ... and the following morning I should see the Boks wallop the Wallabies again?" - Havak
                              "The only thing worse than being quoted in someone's sig is not being quoted in someone's sig." - finbar, with apologies to Oscar Wilde.

                              Comment


                              • Christian Cullen is 27. A bit of a surprise, because he seems to have been around for eons. John Hart is mystified by Mitchell's non-selection of Cullen, refusing to believe he's not in the top two fullbacks in the country. But I think Mitchell has always been concerned about Cullen's defence, which has always been a bit questionable. And Mitchell made it fairly clear last season, rightly or wrongly, that he wanted versatility in his backline - wingers and full back interchangeable. Time will tell.

                                Taine Randell could be another departure if he's overlooked. Talking to Saracens, apparently. Randell had a very fine S12 season at #8 and skippered very intelligently. I don't think the two #8s Mitchell used against England, Wales and France showed anything special. If Randell isn't picked for the Tri-Nations squad, you'd have to think Mitchell is wielding a broom.
                                " ... and the following morning I should see the Boks wallop the Wallabies again?" - Havak
                                "The only thing worse than being quoted in someone's sig is not being quoted in someone's sig." - finbar, with apologies to Oscar Wilde.

                                Comment

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