Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[Kuciwalker]

Communism
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

from dictionary.com

Thus, an authoritarian government implementing socialist economic policies.

[Sava]

I'd be against any sort of "revolution" that didn't encompass the values of Democracy set forth in the Constitution.

[alva]

Sure, our luxuries have given us more time for contemplation

Not to threadjack, but and I'm not sure which one it was, but homo alongwhileagous needed 8 hours a week !! to make sure he could eat, have a roof over his head etc.
Ok, he didn't have 154864 channels and no remote , but it does makes you think (well, me at least )
Just count how many hours a day it takes you.
That does tell me that there is something wrong with capitalism. ( there are other reasons too)

[Velociryx]

Tsk, tsk, young Skywalker! Don't you know that you're not allowed to use the *actual* definitions of words here! That's just not acceptable! I'm sure there will be tons of the party faithful along shortly to tell you why! The HORROR! What have you done?!

-=Vel=-
(good job, btw )

[Velociryx]

Homo Alongwhileagous! I love it! And yes, in our modern world it sadly takes us at least 40 hours a week.... Not sure who's bright idea the 40-hour work week was, but I don't think that's a uniquely capitalist idea. Might be....I honestly don't know.

-=Vel=-

[The Templar]

Originally posted by skywalker


ummm... yes it is... duh

SOCIALISM is the thing that isn't a political system. It is an economic system.

COMMUNISM (by definition) is a political system that integrates the socialist economic system into an authoritation political system.

Anarcho-socialism is the leftist version of Libertarianism (it is anti-authoritarian, for lack of a better word)

I am amazed at this constant misrepresentation of communism as entailing political authoritarianism. Perhaps to the extent that a communal, non-private property system is enforced. But I would point out that the 5th Amendment to the US constitution likewise may take the private property out of the democratic decision process. Does that mean the US is authoritarian?

Communism is about ending the alienation between labor (and skill) and capital as a token for distributing scarce resource. Capitalists who seem to think communism entails tossing Eminem in a Gulag and conscription into a new Red Army are attacking a strawman of communism.

[Zero]

I prefer some economic "ism" thats gonna come in 2296AD

too bad I have no idea how it works, but I hear its far more superior to this "capitalism" ive been hearing alot about.

[Kuciwalker]

Templar:

Communism requires STATE control of all industry, etc. Therefore it is authoritarian (as it controls everything).

EDIT: Note that "authoritarian" doesn't mean "gulag" or even "undemocratic" (in the sense of no elections). It just means total state control.

[Velociryx]

Okay, Templar....I'll bite. Tell me WHY it's attacking a strawman. We have seen communism in action in a variety of places around the world, first and most notably in Russia.

And in that communist experiment, isn't that *exactly* what occured? Kill those in opposition to the party, round up the dissidents and send them off someplace remote.

Why would the new dog and pony show shake out differently??

-=Vel=-

[Sava]

Originally posted by skywalker
Templar:

Communism requires STATE control of all industry, etc. Therefore it is authoritarian (as it controls everything).

EDIT: Note that "authoritarian" doesn't mean "gulag" or even "undemocratic" (in the sense of no elections). It just means total state control.

In communism, the state doesn't exist... the public has control over production

[Zero]

Originally posted by skywalker
Templar:

Communism requires STATE control of all industry, etc. Therefore it is authoritarian (as it controls everything).

That sounds more fascist.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Homo Alongwhileagous! I love it! And yes, in our modern world it sadly takes us at least 40 hours a week.... Not sure who's bright idea the 40-hour work week was, but I don't think that's a uniquely capitalist idea. Might be....I honestly don't know.

-=Vel=-

No, the 40 hr week was brought to you by the union. That's right! The labor movement. Prior to that, capitalists basically said work as long as we say or we'll fire you and hire some poor slob who will work the hours we want.

So why is it capitalists are so down on unions? Why is it any time the workers try to equalize bargaining power capitalists complain? Why do you think labor should only be allowed to deal with corporations one at a time? How come the much vaunted freedom to contract never applies to unions, only corporations? Hypocrites!

[Velociryx]

On paper, Sava. But point out a historical or presently functioning example of communism where that is actually the case.

-=Vel=-

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Zero


That sounds more fascist.

That IS fascism... except that fascism also includes a right-wing economic policy.

It's the 2-dimensional political graph.

[Sava]

On paper, Sava. But point out a historical or presently functioning example of communism where that is actually the case.

-=Vel=-

That's exactly my point, communism has not yet existed. I just wish people would know what they are talking about when they bash something. The Soviet Union sucked ass. But it wasn't Communism. And I'm not saying Communism is good or it would work. Personally, I think it fails to take into account the criminal element, that's why attempts to get it to work have failed.

skywalker: fascism, and the style of government the Soviet Union had, were very, very similar. High ranking Nazi party members controlled the means on production in Germany.... high ranking "communist" party members in the Soviet Union controlled the means of production in Germany. It's the same thing with different names.