Should we legalise cannabis?

[Kuciwalker]

hypocrite?

I don't drink... or even use caffeine

[monolith94]

Never had a coke in your life???

[Kuciwalker]

I've had coke... but I prefer sprite, and REFUSE to use caffeine to stay awake.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Cruddy


They kill people? OK, cannabis doesn't kill, but the others do.

you know that smoking weed is worse than tobacco?

most tobacco products have filters and stuff

weed does not

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by monolith94
Never had a coke in your life???

in order to use caffiene on the level where it will effect you or be addictive you have to drink 3 cups of coffee in a relatively short time (an evening)

while people who drink a lot of caffeinated pop do do this, most do not

Jon Miller

[Dis]

nobody smokes 1 to 3 packs of joints a day.

[monolith94]

"most tobacco products have filters and stuff"

The tobacco companies are kind enough to include tar, as well.

"I've had coke"

Then you're JUST AS GUILTY! Plus, there's caffeine in tons of stuff, even where you'd least expect it. Read that in a consumer reports article.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Dissident
nobody smokes 1 to 3 packs of joints a day.

That's true, but I know a few potheads who smoke quite a bit.

skywalker: do you drink alcoholic beverages? or coffee? should they be illegal as well?

the simple fact is, abuse of anything, whether it's pot, coke, heroine, coffee, fast food, porn, bad language, altoids is bad...

addiction is the problem that afflicts people who abuse drugs, alcohol, excessive gamblers, etc... the substance itself is not the problem... and prohibition creates more problems than it solves... in fact, prohibition doesn't solve anything. Marijuana, and all drugs should be legalized, taxed, and the money should be used for addiction counseling programs.

[Berzerker]

Speer -

The use of illicit drugs is illegal because of their intoxicating effects on the brain, damaging impact on the body, adverse impact on behavior, and potential for abuse.

Not true, CERTAIN drugs are illegal because they lack the political clout to keep them legal. If these were really the criteria, tobacco and alcohol would be at the top of the list because of the millions who've died using them.

Their use threatens the health, welfare, and safety of all people, of users and non-users alike.

This is the kind of immoral generalisation used by racists, but apparently it's okay to lie about drug users. SOME drug users are a threat to others, and SOME sober people are a threat to others. If Hitler and Stalin smoked pot, maybe the world would not have seen 10's of millions die under their "sober" reigns.

Legalization would decrease price and increase availability.

Depending on the tax rate of course, but availability may not increase. The reason so many 3rd world farmers are growing drug crops is because of the black market prices. Remove that incentive to grow drug crops and many farmers will go back to growing food crops.

Availability is a leading factor associated with increased drug use.

And availability depends also on supply, and the drug war has increased supply (imagine that).

Increased use of addictive substances leads to increased addiction. As a public health measure, statistics show that prohibition was a tremendous success.

where are these statistics? The only statistics I've seen for pre-prohibition and prohibition consumption rates show that consumption was no higher before prohibition, if anything, consumption went up during prohibition.

Many drug users commit murder, child and spouse abuse, rape, property damage, assault and other violent crimes under the influence of drugs.

Many non-drug users commit murder, child and spouse abuse, rape, property damage, assault and other violent crimes under the influence of sobriety.

Drug users, many of whom are unable to hold jobs, commit robberies not only to obtain drugs, but also to purchase food, shelter, clothing and other goods and services.

Gee, you mean they rob people to pay for those really expensive drugs that wouldn't cost nearly as much if they were legal? Thanks for making us safer...

Increased violent crime and increased numbers of criminals will result in even larger prison populations.

Strange, the following is one of those stats your source has ignored:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/graphs/10.htm

Looks like violent crime also depends on the activities of politicians. I would have figured your esteemed source would actually provide something as important as homicide rates for the last century to make their case...if they had a case to make...

Legalizing drugs will not eliminate illegal trafficking of drugs, nor the violence associated with the illegal drug trade. A black market would still exist unless all psychoactive and addictive drugs in all strengths were made available to all ages in unlimited quantity.

But the black market would look like the one we see with minors and alcohol and tobacco, a minimal black market. We don't see alcohol dealers having shootouts over who gets to sell booze to the local kids. But back when adults couldn't legally sell and buy booze, that was when we saw the growth of gangsters and black market violence.

Drug laws deter people from using drugs.

Then why hasn't drug consumption declined?

Surveys indicate that the fear of getting in trouble with the law constitutes a major reason not to use drugs.

But the severe penalties are reserved for dealing large amounts, not possession of small amounts. Besides, there is a point at which enforcement inefficiencies create the atmosphere of immunity (which is why so many people exceed speed limits), and as long as children are given a slap on the hand for drug use, they won't be afraid of the laws.

Fear of the American legal system is a major concern of foreign drug lords.

Foreign drug lords that wouldn't exist without prohibition, so naturally the drug war pushers blame the users while avoiding mirrors.

Drug laws have turned drug users to a drug-free lifestyle through mandatory treatment.

Nah, people don't quit using drugs unless they really want to quit. People who don't want to quit will go thru the motions of rehab and start using once they're out of the system (if not before).

40% - 50% are in treatment as a result of the criminal justice system.

As an alternative to jail. But there we see a new humungous bureaucracy born from the death and destruction called the "drug war".

A study of international drug policy and its effects on countries has shown that countries with lax drug law enforcement have had an increase in drug addiction and crime.

Oh please! What European country with lax drug laws has more crime and violence than the USA? Obviously if a small European nation legalised or decriminalised drugs, eventually some hardcore users from neighboring countries will migrate there. Portugal has about the most lenient policy of all, so we'll see what happens. We've seen what happened in the USA - doubled homicide rates, juvenile crime thru the roof, etc...

Btw, ever wonder why juvenile crime rates began skyrocketing in the mid 80's and have kept climbing ever since? Because Reagan, Congress, and then the states began increasing penalties for adults involved in the drug trade. What's the connection? Many adults wanting to avoid those harsher penalties recruited juveniles exempt from the penalties to take more of the risks of being involved in the drug trade. Presto! Juvenile crime starts doing up and so does juvenile drug use!

Conversely, those with strong drug policies have reduced drug use and enjoy low crime rates.

Then maybe the USA should execute drug users.

The United States and many countries would be in violation of international treaty if they created a legal market in cocaine, marijuana, and other drugs.

The USA is already in violation of it's own Constitution. The USA never had the authority to enter into such treaties because the USA lacks the constitutional authority to wage the drug war. Btw, the USA can pull out of treaties too, you know.

The U.S. is a signatory to the Single Convention on Narcotics & the Convention on Psychotropic Substances, and has agreed with other members of the United Nations to control and penalize drug manufacturing, trafficking, and use.

Would that be the United Nations the USA just ignored in Gulf War II?

[Sava]

Speer, as Berz just proved, you were wrong on every count...

[Berzerker]

you know that smoking weed is worse than tobacco?

most tobacco products have filters and stuff

weed does not

Ever see Pat Paulson of "Laugh-In" fame standing in a graveyard telling the viewers to come to Marlboro Country?

[Berzerker]

Speer, as Berz just proved, you were wrong on every count...

[takes a bow] But I was just responding to what Speer posted from some drug war outfit.

[monolith94]

I may disagree with you on alot of things, Berzerker, but I'm with you on legalization!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by monolith94
"most tobacco products have filters and stuff"

The tobacco companies are kind enough to include tar, as well.

"I've had coke"

Then you're JUST AS GUILTY! Plus, there's caffeine in tons of stuff, even where you'd least expect it. Read that in a consumer reports article.

No, I'm not. I drink coke when they don't have sprite or ginger ale or root beer. I usually only have 1 can. It's like saying that my dad, who MAY have beer every other month at some business function or whatever, is an alcoholic.

[Berzerker]

Nah, skywalker ain't a hypocrite for occasionally consuming caffeine given it's prevalence in society. Now, if he drinks 2 or 3 sodas a day, we might say his posts were submitted while under the influence.