Why Capitalists are Capitalists...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
kid, people are rational, yes?

That has been one of the centerpieces of your entire argument, right?

Question for you.....what is the rational choice:

1) Go out and work hard for your money

or

2) Stay home, party all night, play computer games, and post on 'poly and make the same (or nearly so) money as the person who goes out and works hard all day.

What would the rational person do? (I know what I'd do if presented with those two choices!)

-=Vel=-

Duh! Should I really anticipate a better argument than you last arguments from this. Ok, rational people make a compromise between the two, leisure and work.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The Communist Credo, boiled down to it's bare bones:

You have more stuff than me. I want more stuff! I'm not sure if I can duplicate your hard work and success, but I shouldn't have to. The stuff exists, and because it does, I am entitled to my "fair share." If you disagree, me and my friends will put you in a cold, miserable place and take what's yours. Give it up....it's in the interest of the party (er...the "whole group.")

The "stuff" one obtains in a capitalist economy is not logically connected to how much work one does, or how hard one works to obtain it. Many people work back-breakingly hard for little reward and many other people do no work at all and live through investments. Calling capitalism a "hard work" ethic is to severely misrepresent it - it's as much a "luck" ethic and a "swindler's" ethic as anything else.

If you want to complain about people who do nothing, then complain about the people who live off inherited wealth or trust funds. They contribute no labour to the economy and create no wealth at all - in short they do nothng productive. Worse, people who work (both business owners and wage and salary earners) end up paying for the lot of it.

[Az]

The socialist aims for equality of outcomes regardless of effort or talent.

Yep, just keep saying this to yourselves.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
How, exactly, do the rich "depend" on the poor? I'm very curious to hear this!

-=Vel=-

Very simple. They get paid for not working. Work is the basis of all value.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Ok, tell me why it should.

Average birthrates and population growth outstripping economic growth by a factor of 2 or 3 or more to 1, inability of those countries to ever sustain their populations, political instability, tribal, ethnic and religious war (maybe you commies could all go and fix the Congo for starters), etc. But just keep your head up and locked, that's ok. Or we'll plunder the developed world to support an ever growing, ever non-self-sustaining developed world.

Dependency is the way of the current system.

Interdependency of all sectors of the economy, you mean. Permanent dependency is not a hardwired feature capitalist systems.

The only other solution would be to shorten the work week, but I don't think that would be as efficient.

It's done wonders in France and Germany,

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Very simple. They get paid for not working. Work is the basis of all value.

Now you're the one regurgitating used (and refuted) arguments.

(a) the rich work;

(b) resources have value in themselves independent of the quantity of work required. (remember that inconvenient little mineral rights example you punted on)

You can repeat it all you want, reality ain't gonna conform to your desire for it to be a certain way.

You're still spouting century and a half old cant, when capitalism has evolved way beyond the days of Marx. All you guys are doing is leaving yourselves further in the dust.

[Velociryx]

Kid: Remember now, in your utopia, incomes will be close to the same for everyone. That means there is very little incentive to go work hard, cos you can stay at home and make almost the same money.

Given that, what would the rationality be to work at all? Hell, if I can make the same (or nearly the same) money I'm making right now by staying home in my slippers and posting on 'poly, it would not be a tough decision to make.

And that is perfectly acceptable behavior in your system.

What's NOT perfectly acceptable behavior, however, is to go out and work hard and "get more" than you. Cos if I do that....I could then do all sorts of evil, exploitive things, right?

Ned...Thanks bud! Keep chiming in! One can never have too many people helping fight the good fight!

Agathon: That there are disparities in incomes, and that some types of work are valued less than others (say, ditch digging as opposed to developing a new open heart surgical technique) in no way proves your point.

Yes, ditch digging is hard. You likely will have sore muscles at the end of a day. You probably won't have sore muscles at the end of the day working to develop a new open heart surgical technique. Fortunately, the amount of muscle-ache does not determine what we pay for the two services mentioned above.

Azazel, we don't HAVE to keep saying it to ourselves when your Comrades are saying it for us....

Kid: Incorrect. Do you think Bill Gates does not work? And you claim to have a degree in economics?!

-=Vel=-

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Kidicious

No, he would be thrown in the Gulag for that.

Comments like this shows that even you can't admit that Communism doesn't work without force and coercion. And yet you still claim that it is possible to work in a "free" society?

Don't make us laugh.

[Az]

Azazel, we don't HAVE to keep saying it to ourselves when your Comrades are saying it for us....

How about a true response?

Since socialism is just a tool for me, I can always compromise, but the changes that I'll demand from capitalism are way too far fetched for you pigdogs to ponder.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Average birthrates and population growth outstripping economic growth by a factor of 2 or 3 or more to 1, inability of those countries to ever sustain their populations, political instability, tribal, ethnic and religious war (maybe you commies could all go and fix the Congo for starters), etc. But just keep your head up and locked, that's ok. Or we'll plunder the developed world to support an ever growing, ever non-self-sustaining developed world.

Forget about ethnic and religious wars. In fact forget about war. Not a problem in a communist world. Now get those people some damn birth control. Then give them an income to buy things. Unemployment problem solved.

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Interdependency of all sectors of the economy, you mean. Permanent dependency is not a hardwired feature capitalist systems.

Is

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
It's done wonders in France and Germany,

They have the best labor laws in the world. Too bad the US and others are so exploitive. If the world worked together on the problem of technological unemployment the results would be positive.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Their recession has nothing to do with their efficiency. They have a lot of trouble in their banking sector.

Nihon e itta koto ga arima****a ka? Nanjikan ni?

[JohnT]

"Group effort has proven the more efficient way. Individualism is a failure. Look at the Japanese. Everyone is following their example now. You don't want to argue with progress do you?"

Cite?

What everyone is "following" are Japanese improvements in production techniques and inventory control. There was a fad back in the late '80s/early 90's to import some of the more appealing (to Westerners) Japanese corporate customs (Executive work camps, that sort of thing), but a lot of that has fallen by the wayside.

What people are not following is the idea that we need to reorganize society in the Japanese mode. Where did you ever get that idea?

[Velociryx]

"Is."

I think that's perhaps the most persuasive argument I've seen the Kid use so far!

That's right....there won't be any wars in a communist state, cos all the potential dissenters will already be with me in the Gulag, right? Anybody who doesn't tow the party line vanishes in the night.

And THIS is supposed to be what we give up our worldly goods for? You're not makin' a very good case for it, I fear.

'zazel: Oh, but it IS a true response...read this thread!

-=Vel=-

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I tried teaching, but I realized that it was ruining my life so I'm going back to school. I"m set to start on a business degree, probably Accounting or Finance. I already have a degree in Economics.

But that was an individual choice that you made to "benefit yourself at societies expense". Are you morally certain that the world needs more Accountants (such an odd profession for someone of your political leanings) than teachers?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Given that, what would the rationality be to work at all? Hell, if I can make the same (or nearly the same) money I'm making right now by staying home in my slippers and posting on 'poly, it would not be a tough decision to make.

Contrary to your belief, you don't have to pay people a million dollars to work.