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  • #241
    Have a nice wait for the revolution.

    (seriously, I don't think you're a bad guy at all. The realism of your polito-economic vision, OTOH... but nobody's perfect.
    When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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    • #242
      And on another note, I'm curious about a couple of things, so I'll ask YOU to clarify.

      1) You said my "they as individuals made more of themselves by working harder and smarter" comment was crap. So....what's your take on it? Did they lie, cheat, and exploit their way to wealth and affluence? In your opinion, is that what EVERYONE who is wealthy does? Are there no instances of a man coming from humble means and working his way honestly to affluence?

      2) You said that it's "fair" if the rich are made to compensate the less well off for their having relatively fewer opportunities. Why is this fair, in your mind? How should it be accomplished? (by force, heavier taxation, at the end of each day, put all money generated into a central account and divide it by the total number of people in the nation, with each person getting an exactly equal share...how?)

      Inquiring minds wanna know.

      -=Vel=-
      The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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      • #243
        Ideology is like faith. People will believe it no matter if there is no evidience.

        MtG, John, and all: You are beating your heads against a wall.
        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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        • #244
          Originally posted by Velociryx
          1) You said my "they as individuals made more of themselves by working harder and smarter" comment was crap. So....what's your take on it? Did they lie, cheat, and exploit their way to wealth and affluence? In your opinion, is that what EVERYONE who is wealthy does? Are there no instances of a man coming from humble means and working his way honestly to affluence?
          You keep looking at individuals. You have to look at whole groups and then make general statements. You keep saying that poor people can make opportunities for themselves. That maybe true for individuals, but not for the whole group. For every person who tries to make opportunities for themselves there are many others who try and fail.
          Originally posted by Velociryx
          2) You said that it's "fair" if the rich are made to compensate the less well off for their having relatively fewer opportunities. Why is this fair, in your mind? How should it be accomplished? (by force, heavier taxation, at the end of each day, put all money generated into a central account and divide it by the total number of people in the nation, with each person getting an exactly equal share...how?)

          Inquiring minds wanna know.

          -=Vel=-
          All the wealth should be taken and used to create the new system. There should be a compromise made between incentives and equality. People should be rewarded for hard work and talent, but nothing like the way the rich are compensated in the current system.
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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          • #245
            Originally posted by Oerdin
            Ideology is like faith. People will believe it no matter if there is no evidience.

            MtG, John, and all: You are beating your heads against a wall.
            It's just recreation. A break from the monotony of exploiting the masses, if you will.
            When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

            Comment

            • #246
              Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


              It's just recreation. A break from the monotony of exploiting the masses, if you will.
              Exploit this! Capitalist pigdog.
              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

              Comment

              • #247
                The problem, Kid, is that we are not a "whole group." We are a collection of individuals.

                Whatever the system, it's got to start with the individual and scale up to the societal level from there.

                Society as a whole did not make Bill Gates wealthy....Bill Gates made Bill Gates wealthy.

                Bill Gates is an individual who did that. He did it by way of hard, smart work.

                You would demeen that accomplishment. Lessen it simply because other individuals either chose not to, or could not duplicate that success.

                I would like to know why.

                As to the second point, good luck convincing large numbers of people of that (giving up their wealth to be redistributed to the masses). In all liklihood, they'll tell you to go make your own money, and leave theirs alone...and why shouldn't they tell you that? Did you play ANY role, direct or indirect, in making their money? If not, then what gives you ANY right to dictate terms to them about how they should use it?

                We are not...I repeat, we are NOT ants in a collective. We are individuals, each making our own choices.

                -=Vel=-
                The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                Comment

                • #248
                  Originally posted by Velociryx
                  The problem, Kid, is that we are not a "whole group." We are a collection of individuals.

                  Whatever the system, it's got to start with the individual and scale up to the societal level from there.
                  Ok, everything makes sense then. You're talking about making individuals better off not the whole group. It would have been easier to state that up front. I agree that the current system is better for individuals otherwise it would have no supporters at all.
                  Originally posted by Velociryx
                  As to the second point, good luck convincing large numbers of people of that (giving up their wealth to be redistributed to the masses). In all liklihood, they'll tell you to go make your own money, and leave theirs alone...and why shouldn't they tell you that? Did you play ANY role, direct or indirect, in making their money? If not, then what gives you ANY right to dictate terms to them about how they should use it?
                  We just take your sh1t.
                  I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                  - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                  Comment

                  • #249
                    Yes. I am talking about starting down at the "atomic level" of society. Working with an on individuals.

                    There are a finite number of individuals in a society. A countable number.

                    Broken out any way you choose to, that means there are a finite number of "poor", and "rich" people.

                    If we can take those people, one at a time, and draw them a plan, roadmap, recepie (whatever you want to call it) to improve their situation (and you have already agreed that such a plan CAN be made), and if they follow it to its logical conclusion, then they WILL improve their situation in life.

                    The good thing about recipies is that they are replicatable.

                    I buy a cake mix and follow the directions, I get a cake.

                    You buy a cake mix and follow the directions, you get a cake too.

                    True, plans will be different for each individual, based on their own tastes, desires, and aspirations, but there is NO reason....no reason at all, that such plans cannot be made and acted upon.

                    Scalable.

                    Do it enough times, and everyone has the opportunity.

                    -=Vel=-
                    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                    Comment

                    • #250
                      And if you don't like it Vel, you can go to the gulag with the rest of the pigdogs.
                      I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                      - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                      Comment

                      • #251
                        Originally posted by Velociryx
                        If we can take those people, one at a time, and draw them a plan, roadmap, recepie (whatever you want to call it) to improve their situation (and you have already agreed that such a plan CAN be made), and if they follow it to its logical conclusion, then they WILL improve their situation in life.
                        Change the word 'will,' and we might be able to agree on more.
                        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                        Comment

                        • #252
                          Originally posted by Kidicious
                          And if you don't like it Vel, you can go to the gulag with the rest of the pigdogs.
                          If push came to shove, I figure I could take a hundred or so with me. Who's first?

                          The reason socialism/communism operates in terms of "groups" is that you can then rationalize all sorts of human rights abuses, injustices, and general incompetence, because those only affect "individuals" who don't count. And besides, if they *****, they're clearly more interested in themselves not getting ****ed over than in some marginal at best, nebulous improvement in "the people's" welfare, as defined for the people by the party. Therefore, they're counterrevolutionaries, in which case they must be punished by taking what little they have left.
                          When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

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                          • #253
                            Originally posted by Kidicious


                            Change the word 'will,' and we might be able to agree on more.
                            "will" is not debatable - the only thing debatable is the degree in improvement in economic situation.
                            When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                            Comment

                            • #254
                              Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
                              The reason socialism/communism operates in terms of "groups" is that you can then rationalize all sorts of human rights abuses, injustices, and general incompetence, because those only affect "individuals" who don't count. And besides, if they *****, they're clearly more interested in themselves not getting ****ed over than in some marginal at best, nebulous improvement in "the people's" welfare, as defined for the people by the party. Therefore, they're counterrevolutionaries, in which case they must be punished by taking what little they have left.
                              Riiiiiight. Just change the word 'marginal.'
                              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                              Comment

                              • #255
                                Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
                                "will" is not debatable - the only thing debatable is the degree in improvement in economic situation.
                                I won't debate that
                                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                                Comment

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