Is American Culture Being Overwhelmed By Foreign Cultures?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Arrian
Same old arguement. You'll never convince him, Vel. He honestly believes in American Cultural Imperialism (tm).

Me, I'm starting to think it's just an ethnocentrist mindset (racist, even?) that demands that the things in France be "French." If something isn't, it upsets him.

Though he's much more eloquent and thoughtful, I'm not sure his mindset is all that much different from Boddington's (those damn furriners are screwing up our country!).

I must not have been clear last time we talked about it Arrian.

1. I am not an ethnocentrist by any standard. I may have political flaws, but ethnocentrism isn't one of those. If I was ethnocentrist, would I live in Germany ? Would I come to these boards to talk with Americans directly and actually have my point of view challenged ? Would I use Feta cheese, Olive oil and Chinese noodles in my diet on a nearly daily basis ? Would I regret that there is nearly no Spanish-speaking, German-speaking, or Chinese-speaking music airing on French radios ? Would I be interested and excited in foreign cutures ? Would have I enjoyed Arabic singer Khaled ? Would I have begun learning Japanese ? NO.

Fact is, I sincerely believe that cultural exchange is enriching, even though I think national cultures should keep safe some core elements of their culture. Better yet, I even strive for cultural exchange in my daily life. That's the whole meaning of studying in Germany or browsing 'Poly for me.

2. I oppose the American overwhelming flow of culture. It doesn't mean that I oppose the American culture as a whole. I merely oppose its commercial agressivity which tries (It has begun to change significantly though) to corner the whole cultural market, i.e to get a monopoly on cultural goods. No big conspiracy, those are just mass-entertainment companies which try to make the most money with the cheapest costs.

This doesn't make me an enemy of American culture. I enjoy Jazz, despite it being American, I enjoyed Matrix, Seinfeld and Friends, I enjoy playing the US/UK version of Civ3 and PtW, and I intend to buy GalCiv in the next days.

I am an enemy of the overwhelmingness of some parts of the American culture. It is a very different thing.

3. To me "American cultural imperialism" means that there is a determined policy in Washington to help spreading the American culture as much as possible, as well as a mindset present in many Americans, including big fishes in the cultural industries, that the American Way of Life is genuinely better and should be spread to the world (see DD's nationalism thread).
Again, no big conspiracy.

4. Actually, my hatred against this imperialism comes from the fact that I am not ethnocentrist. I fear that American mass-entertainment crap will considerably level the cultures of the world, and not for the better. Crappy domestic mass-entertainment products are not inherently better than American ones, far from it. But they are domestic and do not threaten the uniqueness of the local culture.

Edit : added link

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
1. I am not an ethnocentrist by any standard.

You may or may not be an ethnocentrist. However that seems to be the entire basis for the law in question.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You may or may not be an ethnocentrist. However that seems to be the entire basis for the law in question.

The law would have been ethnocentrist if the French scene was well represented in the radio stations, OR if the French public wouldn't have been interested in French music.
It would have also been ethnocentrist if there was a representative cultural variety on radio (actually, the 20% European music clause calls for more cultural variety, even if it has been used nearly solely to air British groups).

The intend of the law was clearly to fight against the overwhelmingness of American culture. No other culture suffered from this law in France, simply because the American culture was the only foreign culture we were permanently exposed to in the mass-media.

I don't see anything ethnocentric in defending its culture against something overwhelming. Ethnocentricism, in my definition, is to think only within the frame of one's own culture without making any effort to try thinking within another cultural frame, and without bothering looking at other cultures.

This definition of ethnocentricism is widely different from attempting to defend one's own culture from being overwhelmed.

[Velociryx]

I think that if a culture is so weak it cannot stand up to simple economic forces, then it should be relegated to a museum and admired as something that was.

If the culture is strong and vibrant, then it will shine all the more brightly next to the watered down variants offered, and if not....why should we pass laws to support it. If the people who DEFINED the culture in the first place have so little interest in it, then why the need for the law?

-=Vel=-

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I think that if a culture is so weak it cannot stand up to simple economic forces, then it should be relegated to a museum and admired as something that was.

I think that if economic forces are harming a culture, especially by messing with the cultural education of children, this culture should be protected.

If the culture is strong and vibrant, then it will shine all the more brightly next to the watered down variants offered, and if not....why should we pass laws to support it. If the people who DEFINED the culture in the first place have so little interest in it, then why the need for the law?

If the culture depends of an economic logic, the decisions of a few corporations will make it either "shining and vibrant", or dead. I'm one of those who think culture is a matter way too important to let some corporations be responsible of it.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think that if economic forces are harming a culture, especially by messing with the cultural education of children,

Why are you blaming outside forces for what is an internal failiure of the Fifth Republic?

[Velociryx]

But you see....it's not the companies who are doing the damage!

You said yourself that it was not mainstream in France to support the local music scene.

What this means then, is that French consumers (the people who buy the music) can't be arsed to show much interest in local bands. French radio stations (which before the law forced them to play local music) were playing what people wanted to hear. Since nobody could be arsed to give local bands a listen, nobody did, and the radio stations pandered to that, playing what they DID want to listen to.

So the people who were damaging the "french music culture" were....The French! By not caring enough to give their home grown bands a listen until they were told to by Big Brother.

-=Vel=-

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why are you blaming outside forces for what is an internal failiure of the Fifth Republic?

This would be an internal failure if the Republic didn't take steps about it. That's precisely why I support those steps.

[Arrian]

Spiff,

I exaggerated a bit for effect, I admit (the Bods reference). I almost added a smiley or two, but I wanted to see your reaction.

However,

1. I am not an ethnocentrist by any standard. I may have political flaws, but ethnocentrism isn't one of those. If I was ethnocentrist, would I live in Germany ? Would I come to these boards to talk with Americans directly and actually have my point of view challenged ? Would I use Feta cheese, Olive oil and Chinese noodles in my diet on a nearly daily basis ? Would I regret that there is nearly no Spanish-speaking, German-speaking, or Chinese-speaking music airing on French radios ? Would I be interested and excited in foreign cutures ? Would have I enjoyed Arabic singer Khaled ? Would I have begun learning Japanese ? NO.

Fact is, I sincerely believe that cultural exchange is enriching, even though I think national cultures should keep safe some core elements of their culture. Better yet, I even strive for cultural exchange in my daily life. That's the whole meaning of studying in Germany or browsing 'Poly for me.

Yet you still want your culture to be dominant within its original country (France). Sampling other cultures is all well and good, but if the other cultures start to really mix with yours (or worse, replace it!), it's not cool anymore, right?

If more people felt the way you did, American products (which I think you mistake for "culture") wouldn't sell as well, and thus wouldn't "overwhelm" the local ones.

Whatever, like I said, I'm not gonna convince you.

-Arrian

[rah]

Every popular group in the US, was at one time unknown and wasn't heard on the radio. There are thousands of bands that stayed that way. Talant and hard work is never a guarentee of sucess but they sure help. A little luck is always needed. You needed an agent that would pander to the DJs and promotors vices. But once you got a break you needed to replicate sucess. And that took hard work and talant. Look at all the one hit wonders that couldn't replicate.

But if the French local bands can't compete, then I guess they need a law. Your lose.

RAH

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
This would be an internal failure if the Republic didn't take steps about it.

They didn't. They pulled out the jackboots to start with and avoided thinking about more effective measures. Of course considering how lazy the French apparently are based on your description it shouldn't be much of a shocker.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Velociryx
But you see....it's not the companies who are doing the damage!

You said yourself that it was not mainstream in France to support the local music scene.

There might be a language misunderstanding. I thought that, by "local music scene", you mean the music scene of town X, the one that is played in the few concert-bars hosting young artists. Indeed, this form of music isn't wide in France.

What this means then, is that French consumers (the people who buy the music) can't be arsed to show much interest in local bands. French radio stations (which before the law forced them to play local music) were playing what people wanted to hear.

Not exactly. Radio stations played cheap tunes that they expected the people wanted to hear. The figures of the actual sales, now that the playing field has been evened (40% French music minimum on radio, 60% USUK maximum), show that the people didn't necessarily wanted to hear US music all day long. However, it is true the usual radio-listener couldn't be arsed to look for music by himself. It may have to do with almost every known French artist of that time being outfashioned or sucky. It doesn't give an incentive to go explore on one's own. It is possible that the French music scene is now good enough to do without the law. I'll check if it's still in action.

Since nobody could be arsed to give local bands a listen, nobody did, and the radio stations pandered to that, playing what they DID want to listen to.

The bulk of listeners were passive indeed. It doesn't mean that radios aired what the public really wished. Maybe because the public was unaware of the quality out there.
I know it is bad to be passive. But is there any one country where mass-entertainment doesn't make profit on public passivity ? Again, how many copies of crappy products like EnterThematrix. How many copies of the Spice Girls ? Do you think the crappy products sold this way appeal to the genuine tastes of the customer, or do they rather appeal to them tagging along ?
If the public is more active in the US, then thumbs up to that.

So the people who were damaging the "french music culture" were....The French! By not caring enough to give their home grown bands a listen until they were told to by Big Brother.

The French were passively assisting to the damage done to their culture, and the Youth wasn't even aware that French culture could be more than Granddad's thing.
Luckily, it has changed

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Arrian
I exaggerated a bit for effect, I admit (the Bods reference). I almost added a smiley or two, but I wanted to see your reaction.

Well, I feared looking like Bodd's for a bit . That's maybe why I have done a thorought explanation

Yet you still want your culture to be dominant within its original country (France). Sampling other cultures is all well and good, but if the other cultures start to really mix with yours (or worse, replace it!), it's not cool anymore, right?

Absolutely. I fail to see anything wrong with that. Naturally, I wish all countries in the world would feel that way. Culture is an important thing, and cultural diversity is what makes mankind so interesting. I would hate seeing cultures die. Mine or others.

[Velociryx]

The trouble is, Spiff, you can't have it both ways.

Borders are amorphous things. Ideas and information will flow across them, no matter what you do. The moment you begin experiencing other cultures, you mix them (in yourself, in others you share your experiences with).

Culture is made up and defined by the people of your national group. The only way to perfectly preserve it is to never go anywhere (so you're not exposed to the influences of other cultures, and then bring this "infection" back to the Mother country), and only learn of other cultures by passively reading about them.

That's clearly not what you are advocating by your own actions, but it's equally clear it's what you (say you) want. Cultural preservation.

Can't have it both ways.

-=Vel=-

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
They didn't. They pulled out the jackboots to start with and avoided thinking about more effective measures. Of course considering how lazy the French apparently are based on your description it shouldn't be much of a shocker.

It is a century-old French tradition to expect public action from the State rather than from oneself. It may be sad, but it's so. It explains why The State often takes action in circumstances that you'd deem to be the domain of the individuals.