Israel Evacuates Outposts - Assasinates Hamas Leader

[Sava]

Ned, you speak of the war in Iraq as if it's over. American soldiers are still dying each week.

[Edan]

Jenin is as dense as any place in Gaza.

Hmm? I think you'll find you're wrong about that. The Jenin camp had fewer than 10,000 in it.

Gaza is small: the Irsaeli would rive in, hit the camp they were seeking (a camp that would be just as dense and as messy as Jenin), would in theoyr raid one or two houses and then get the hell out of dodge.

Sure, it would be that easy...

Such an operation would be doomed from the start, given th eclear warning the person would have by the time Israel built up it's forces to go in, and any confrontation between a large force and a large groups of angry individuals would likely lead to deaths. And there would be many such confrontations. (never mind provocateurs shooting at the soldiers, or booby trapped roads or buildings, terrorists using human shields to protect them from retaliation, etc.)

If there were a plan that could truely expect low civilian casualties, I would support it. At this time, I don't see that as being likely.

Tell me, if you think that doing a raid in the Gaza strip would be easier than Jenin, and since Israel clearly had the will to go in on the ground in Jenin, why do you think they aren't willing to do so in this case?

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap
Edan:

Jenin is as dense as any place in Gaza. Gaza is small: the Irsaeli would rive in, hit the camp they were seeking (a camp that would be just as dense and as messy as Jenin), would in theoyr raid one or two houses and then get the hell out of dodge. If anything, such an opeartion would be far less bloody than Jenin because of the far more limited aims.

I think, GePap, that Jenin was a lot different that Mogadishu or the assault you are asking for. The Israeli task force in Gaza will be as deep in hostile territory as were our troops in Mogadishu. A armed resistence by the Palestinians could lead to a bloobath.

BTW, speaking of Mogadishu, it appears from your posts that you were in favor of the raid because of your statements that the large number of casualties were caused by a "screwup." What was the screwup?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sava
Ned, you speak of the war in Iraq as if it's over. American soldiers are still dying each week.

True. The Baath party continues to fight on because we do not have Saddam. I'm afraid that even if we come up with evidence that we killed Saddam, that his legend will continue to live and inspire resistance.

Hopefully, we can get a new government in place soon. That will help since the war will be between the Baathists and the new government, and we can bug out.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If Israel really wanted peace, they'd stop murdering bystanders.

Hmm, if we could knock off Saddam or OBL wouldn't it be worth a few dead bystanders? Hamas is an organization dedicated to destroying Israel and driving the Jews into the sea so I could understand why they'd feel killing this bastard was important enough to risk just about anything.

[Sava]

that logic doesn't work with the "war on drugs", Oerdin... Why would it work with "terror"? Whenever you chop off a head, a new one grows and takes it's place.

[GePap]

But doing 'what one feels like" is very different from worhthilwe policy. At least this admin. recognizes that as far as this conflict oges. Good thing the admin. renounced this act by the Isarelis, and they should continue to do so every time Israel assasinates someone.

Such an operation would be doomed from the start, given th eclear warning the person would have by the time Israel built up it's forces to go in, and any confrontation between a large force and a large groups of angry individuals would likely lead to deaths. And there would be many such confrontations. (never mind provocateurs shooting at the soldiers, or booby trapped roads or buildings, terrorists using human shields to protect them from retaliation, etc.)

And what if any is the difference between all this and what predated the March and April 2002 crackdowns? Just by the more limited nature of the objectives less forces would be needed.

Tell me, if you think that doing a raid in the Gaza strip would be easier than Jenin, and since Israel clearly had the will to go in on the ground in Jenin, why do you think they aren't willing to do so in this case?

A raid and an invasion are two different hings. frst of all, israel routinely carries out raids in Gaza for militants and worshops. And Gaza is not the only place were Israel carries out assasinations. If the Irsaeli meant to take Gaza as they did the West Bank, yes, that would be horribly bloody, far worse than anything in the west bank. Bu they would not be doing so, they would be going in to secure one or two individuals and then move out. Yes, still risky, specially in the middle of Gaza City, but far morwe within the norms of society than assasinations (does anyone remember the origin of the word? It isn't particularly a well intentioned term, now is it?)

[PLATO]

GePap, I just can't see where an armed raid would be safer for anyone than a helicopter gunship attack. (except, of course the intended target).
Assasination is not a "pretty" or "honorable" thing. It is sometimes the best way to deal with a particular problem. In the case of Hamas leaders, I have to agree with the Israeli method of handling them. Once Hamas makes peaceful co-existance their goal (if they ever do), then the issue needs to be revisited. For now, Israel does have the right to self defense and assasination is a legitimate tool.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Sava
that logic doesn't work with the "war on drugs", Oerdin... Why would it work with "terror"? Whenever you chop off a head, a new one grows and takes it's place.

I remember reading an article in the economist about three years ago where they showed a big drop in terrorism after the Israelis kiled off half of Hamas's leadership. It took several years the ramaining heads of Hamas to train new people and during that time terror attacks dropped by 2/3s or something along those lines.

Still, you are missing the basic reality. Hamas says they're going to keep up terrorism until all the Jews leave. The choice for the Israelis is allowing there country to be destroyed, attempting to ignore the constent terror attacks in hopes they will go away, or militarially responding by killing the fanatics who are planning and directing the terror attacks.

At of those choices only one is doable and the Israelis have choicen it.

[Firelad]

Today I saw a newspaper, with a big caption in red letters saying: "The Evacuation" and a photo of a sad little girl holding a big stone (apparently to be put in an anti=bulldozer barricade). How touching. They've evacuated ten (or something, not checking facts here, but that's the scale methinks) "illegal" (illegal accord. to Israeli law, naturally, as by international law all settlements are illegal, but screw international law...) settlements, four or so of them manned. Wow, the great sacrifice, cutting in the living flesh.
Then they fire a few rockets in Gaza to show 'em who's boss.
Idiots.
Everybody, that is. Hamas, the Israeli government, no bloody difference. Literally..... They all want peace as much as I want to have a broomstick up me bloody arse. You can somewhat plausibly pretend that you want it, but nobody's going to be fooled except for real foolish (or gullible) people.
And you know what? When the Road Map goes the way of Oslo, everybody's gonna be cheering on the streets, as they do each time a bus blows up. "Now we've got a reason to kill a few palestinians yippy yippy yippy" like they did on 9/11. "Yeah, suits them right for not letting us firebomb Gaza. Maybe now they'll let us yippy yippy."

When people are crazed enough to want to swim in blood they're gonna get it no matter what.

Sorry for the rant, I'm really angry at the bastards.

[Eli]

Just look on the terror levels before and after Defensive Shield. During the operation and in the few months after it Israel killed or captured a whole generation of terror leaders which brought a huge drop in the quality and quantity of terrorist attacks.

[Sava]

Oerdin, you are making that Iraq war mistake again. There aren't two courses of action (kill people or do nothing). There isn't peace because there aren't people on both sides that want peace. When both sides want war and violence, you get war and violence.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Sava
When both sides want war and violence, you get war and violence.

When only one side wants war and violence, you still get war and violence.

[Sava]

It takes two to tango, edan

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sava
Oerdin, you are making that Iraq war mistake again. There aren't two courses of action (kill people or do nothing). There isn't peace because there aren't people on both sides that want peace. When both sides want war and violence, you get war and violence.

Sava, I was under the impression that Israel offered a cease-fire and that Hamas rejected it. Seems that while your argument is correct, it doesn't apply. (Of course this would go well with your own statements concerning the relevance of your posts )