Israel Evacuates Outposts - Assasinates Hamas Leader

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sava


yeah, okay Chegitz...

Whom have they murdered? Accepting, for the moment, that the DP is not considered murder, legally.

[Edan]

[Israel fails in this attack, but Hamas will react. if Israel had succeeded, Hamas would react.

Guess what. If Israel didn't do anything, Hamas would react. At least by attacking Hamas's assets - like it's leadership, Hamas can be made weaker and less capable of carrying out those attacks.

So how does this help anything?

Sigh - it sends a message to the leadership of those organizations that so long as they keep on attacking Israel, Israel will continue to respond - just like any other war. Compare that with not doing anything - which is the same thing as a one sided ceasefire, in which Israel does not do anything while the terror groups get free reign to launch terror acts. I think I know what I would prefer my government do if terror groups attacked me.

It satisfies the urge for vengence of a large number of people, but beyond that, nothing, and it is hardly the type of justice that a state that consides itself democratic.

This isn't about justice or revenge. It's about warfare. A ceasefire cannot be one sided.

Today all israel achieved was keeping things bad, and if it had worked, making them worse. Wow, what a wonderfull job!

If the alternatives are killing 1000+ people in a foolish attempt to capture someone alive in order to put him on trial or making concessions to terrorists, then Israel has made the right decision.

[LittleRaven]

Originally posted by Edan


If Israel didn't care how many Palestinians die, they could wipe the lot in a month if they wanted to. They certainly have the capability.

No, they don't. Israel is bound by what the world finds acceptable. Even the US will not support Israel "wiping the lot." Israel (as we know her) cannot survive international sanctions. This is a bogus argument.

Instead, they do everything they can that is practical to minimize civilian casualties.

No. Firing missiles at apartment complexes does not qualify as "doing everything that is practical." Israel leaves piles of collateral damage in its wake. I grant that they face difficulties, but there is no question that Israel could do more, a great deal more, to minimize casualties.

[GePap]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Edan
Guess what. If Israel didn't do anything, Hamas would react. At least by attacking Hamas's assets - like it's leadership, Hamas can be made weaker and less capable of carrying out those attacks. [/QUOTE}

You mean like all the previous assasitnation have? Yeah, very effective.......

Sigh - it sends a message to the leadership of those organizations that so long as they keep on attacking Israel, Israel will continue to respond - just like any other war. Compare that with not doing anything - which is the same thing as a one sided ceasefire, in which Israel does not do anything while the terror groups get free reign to launch terror acts. I think I know what I would prefer my government do if terror groups attacked me.
This isn't about justice or revenge. It's about warfare. A ceasefire cannot be one sided.

Problem, this isn't a war.

If the alternatives are killing 1000+ people in a foolish attempt to capture someone alive in order to put him on trial or making concessions to terrorists, then Israel has made the right decision.

You are as bad as Ran in the Tianemmen thread. Newsflahs: just becuase you have gotten this absurd view in your head that it will be like Mogadishu, well, does not make it true. Israel lanches raids for militants all the time. as of yet, none of those have killed thousands: if I remmebr correctly, not even the raids in Jenin killed thousands.

You (as Ran did) have this simplistic notion that its either a or b, a or b. It isn't. The possibilities are endless yes, for good or bad). And since we lack a crystal ball, I prefer to make arguemns based on principles and ideas, not utterly unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable results.

[PLATO]

I have to agree with Edan. Hamas is the problem here. If they would agree to the cease-fire than today's events never would have happened. They have publicaly stated time and again that they wish to wipe out the Jewish state. Israel is justified in retailiation.

LittleRaven, A missle into an apartment building is preferable to 2000 troops and tank support having to fight their way to the apartment building and then having a pitched battle to try to get who is in there (assuming that they have not moved to another civilian location). I also think that it is a HUGE leap to assume that the Israelis would wipe out the Pals if the world gave a green light.

Hamas must come to realize that the only chance that they have of obtaining the Palistinian state they desire is through multi-lateral negotiation. Military pressure is the only guage that they have to measure their sucess or failure. An Israeli one sided cease-fire would be a Hamas victory and only provoke a more rigid stand and inspire more violence. The Israelis must continue to degrade their ability to wage a terrorist war while continuing to offer a cease-fire.

[Edan]

Originally posted by GePap


You are as bad as Ran in the Tianemmen thread. Newsflahs: just becuase you have gotten this absurd view in your head that it will be like Mogadishu, well, does not make it true. Israel lanches raids for militants all the time. as of yet, none of those have killed thousands: if I remmebr correctly, not even the raids in Jenin killed thousands.
[/qb]

No, the Jenin raid didn't. And in that case, I supported moving in ground troops to do a slow, careful weading out.

(And yes, Jenin dind't kill thousands - despite wild accusations by the Palestinians that 5000+ were being mass excecuted - it killed 52 according to the Israelis and 56 according to the Palestinians after the fighting was over. And 23 Israelis)

The difference is that Jenin took place in the West Bank, a place far less populated, was targeted at a large number of low lever terrorists suicide-wannabees trather than a terrorist leader who is surrounded by bodyguards and civilians.

The only alternative I can think of would have been to get the PA to go in and arrest the leader, since their forces in Gaza are largely intact because the IDF try to avoid going into the Gaza strip largely because it would cause huge numbers of casualties. And the PA have stated that they would not do any such thing - and it's likely someone in the PA would simply tip off the person.

The possibilities are endless yes, for good or bad).

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean you can't predict simple things, like Hamas is going to kill again, or going in to arrest a heavily uarded indivudal who surrounds himself with bodyguards and civilian human shields, and who is expecting you coming, in the most populated location in the world is likely to get some bystandards killed.

And since we lack a crystal ball, I prefer to make arguemns based on principles and ideas, not utterly unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable results.

"I don't know the future, therefore I can ignore the very likely and real probability that lots of people will get killed?"

[Agathon]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
And if they rebuild again after that, let the Palestinians be the ones to deliver the eviction notice.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Whom have they murdered? Accepting, for the moment, that the DP is not considered murder, legally.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Why do people try to paint Castro as Stalin? The vast majority of the Cuban people genuinely love him, unlike the Russians with Stalin.

I guess if he's a communist he must also be a tyrant and a sadist.

[Arrian]

That's pretty much it (Commie=Stalin).

Though I'm not exactly fond of Castro, he's in a different league than Stalin, or Kim the younger for that matter.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Somehow, I must "agree" with GePaP. This ***-for-tat warfare makes no sense. Israel should go after the terrorists, Hamas, et al., with armor and infrantry. There will, course, be a large number of casualties on both sides. The number of Palestinian casualties will be in the thousands, perhaps in the tens of thousands. But in the end, the Israeli's will get their man, just like we got Saddam and Aidid. GePap truly is wise and prudent.

[chequita guevara]

Does this mean you now think the war on Iraq was wrong, Ned?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Arrian
That's pretty much it (Commie=Stalin).

Ask a Trotskyite for a second opinion.

Though I'm not exactly fond of Castro, he's in a different league than Stalin, or Kim the younger for that matter.

Different league? It's a different game.

[Sava]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Whom have they murdered? Accepting, for the moment, that the DP is not considered murder, legally.

How many innocents do you think Castro has executed? Don't give me that DP isn't murder bullsh1t.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Does this mean you now think the war on Iraq was wrong, Ned?

No, not really.

I think, though, the raid on Aidid was wrong. As we saw from what actually happened, if anything went wrong, there would be a bloodbath. That much was predictable.

I think, though, the way we conducted the Iraqi campaign was remarkable in the way it minimized casualties on both sides. (Mainly in the Iraqi side because they threw down their arms and went home.) Had the war resulted in hundred of thousands of casualities as some predicted, it would have been harder to justify.

[GePap]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Does this mean you now think the war on Iraq was wrong, Ned?

Che:

You know what my postion on the war was (as does everyone), and this and the other are not the same. Blanket arguements are usually wrong, even if once or twice they hit.

This isn't about Iraq.

Also, please do not generalize about support for or against that war. We were both against it, but for very, very different reasons.

Edan:

Jenin is as dense as any place in Gaza. Gaza is small: the Irsaeli would rive in, hit the camp they were seeking (a camp that would be just as dense and as messy as Jenin), would in theoyr raid one or two houses and then get the hell out of dodge. If anything, such an opeartion would be far less bloody than Jenin because of the far more limited aims.