A summary of trickle down economic theory:

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sikander

Please make the connection between finite opportunity and zero sum game.

It's quite rational, in your world it's 1/1.

Let me explain this fantasy world that you right wingers believe in where there is infinite opportunity. A poor person can choose between an infinite number of jobs. He can afford an infinite amount of resources. He can start up any business he wants to and compete with the establishment.

Just because its not a zero sum game doesn't mean that opportunity is infinite.

[Japher]

Let me explain this fantasy world that you right wingers believe in where there is infinite opportunity.

All you got to do is go and see the Wizard!

A poor person can choose between an infinite number of jobs.

Choice comes with sacrifice, it's called 'opportunity cost'.

He can afford an infinite amount of resources.

Your the one who was telling ppl to borrow money! If one needs something, and has the balls to look for it, chances are good they will find it.

He can start up any business he wants to and compete with the establishment.

It ain't going to happen over night, but it can.

You did a good job at describing my wonderful of make believe. Unfortunately for your, it is real... Keep dreaming Kid. Not everyone is poor because they are oppressed. Yet, every one who does not struggle against oppression will stay poor.

[Kidlicious]

[Japher]

Sorry Kid, you are under the impression that things never do and can't change without major government influence, and that is not true. It's the whole give the man a fish thing... Thos who want it can get it, they just have to try...

My main problem is that the gov. gives to those who expect it, it should be given only to those who ask.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
Sorry Kid, you are under the impression that things never do and can't change without major government influence, and that is not true.

That's not true. Things change for the worse if we don't do something to make things fair and create more opportunities for those without.

Originally posted by Japher
It's the whole give the man a fish thing... Thos who want it can get it, they just have to try...

This just isn't true. It's so plainly not true that the only way you can see that it's not true is if you make an honest effort to come out of your fantasy world and join the rest of us who try to see the real world for what it is.

Originally posted by Japher
My main problem is that the gov. gives to those who expect it, it should be given only to those who ask.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I should be given something for no other reason than that I asked for it?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Agathon
There's no such thing as equality of opportunity. Believing in it is like believing in free will (at root the basis of the beliefs are the same).

If we equalize for social class and upbringing, then why don't we equalize for genetic endowment (since that is an accident). And if you want to talk about some people's natural propensity to work harder, then whether or not it's genetic or environmental it's largely a matter of luck. Of course if we equalize for all these things we will have an equal outcome (in the sense that everyone will have the same chance of achieving the good - in other words a dice throw). And more to the point, you can't set them aside without agreeing to some semi-religious view of what persons are.

EOO is just the middle class white people's favourite conception of equality.

Exactly! Of course its a bill of goods sold to the middle class who are usually to encumbered with mortgages, kids, and car payments to have the requisite capital to break into the upper class. They end up just hoping their kids do so - even though their kids won't either.

[Kidlicious]

Here's three absurd ideas that make up the foundations of the right wing's argument. There are more, and I could bring them up if I went back through the thread.

1) Wealth is not a benefit. Ok, then what the hell is the point of studying economics or reading the Wealth of Nations which is the bible for you right wing types.

2) Opportunity is infinite. So I'll just go out and take over the world real quick and make my own reality.

3) The poor are poor because they don't try. Any poor person who tries can become rich. This comes from your idea that opportunity is infinite really. You have to justify this with the idea that the poor must be inferior because they have the same opportuinties as we do.





Wake Up!

[Imran Siddiqui]

As usually, you have no idea what the arguments are of the people you argue against... and then you wonder why people think you have no idea what you are talking about.

Though I guess I shouldn't be suprised to see a lefty who sees things in black and white, when the arguments dealt with shades of grey .

I'll give you one example:

Black and White: They are saying Wealth is not a benefit!

Shades of Grey: To say 'Wealth is a benefit that makes people Wealthy' is an absurdly circular argument that doesn't make your point at all (the 'reasoning' is the definition of the term you are trying to say is bad).

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Fresh water like in the mountains? It has no value to you until you drive up there and get it. Therefore without labor it has no value.

So what happens if you drive up there and the stream is dry? Or the water contaminated? The same labor, so the same value, since the resource itself is valueless?

So tell me this: You have two near surface gold ore deposits, with identical amounts of ore, and identical labor in extracting and processing. One has a yield of .23 ounces per ton of ore, the other has a yield of 1.8 ounces per ton of ore, both extracted by heap-leach process, which is more valuable?

[Japher]

1) Wealth is not a benefit. Ok, then what the hell is the point of studying economics or reading the Wealth of Nations which is the bible for you right wing types.

Chance favors those minds which are best prepared.

The point in learning economics is to learn the methods to aquire wealth and to benefit from it. Not to receive wealth as a benefit.

2) Opportunity is infinite. So I'll just go out and take over the world real quick and make my own reality.

That is a really assinine rebutal, Rome was not built in a day.

3) The poor are poor because they don't try. Any poor person who tries can become rich. This comes from your idea that opportunity is infinite really. You have to justify this with the idea that the poor must be inferior because they have the same opportuinties as we do.

The key is to "try"... The higher the higher the aim, the further the arrow flies... And yes, you can aim too high so it falls on your head, or worse, behind you.

Why do I have to justify that the poor are inferior because they have the same opportunities? You are yet to prove otherwise... Some have more opportunities because they have an easier time at something (better at sports, daddy has money, good at math, etc...). The opportunity is there! No matter what your talent, or how deep you pockets. All you have to do is go out, find it, and take it. Even a rich brat can fail to be successful, so can people who fool themselves. The inferior people are those who fool themselves into believing things the way you do, and thus, will always be poor... unless they win the lottery.

[Japher]

So tell me this: You have two near surface gold ore deposits, with identical amounts of ore, and identical labor in extracting and processing. One has a yield of .23 ounces per ton of ore, the other has a yield of 1.8 ounces per ton of ore, both extracted by heap-leach process, which is more valuable?

I know, I know!

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

So what happens if you drive up there and the stream is dry? Or the water contaminated? The same labor, so the same value, since the resource itself is valueless?

Not to forget that "driving" requires a car and preferably a road. At least the latter is part of the capital stock.

[Japher]

Not to forget that "driving" requires a car and preferably a road. At least the latter is part of the capital stock.

That would just cut into your profit margin, having to put down a TCI is sometimes required, yet little by little the pot will grown, until someone is coming to you asking you for that capital...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


So what happens if you drive up there and the stream is dry? Or the water contaminated? The same labor, so the same value, since the resource itself is valueless?

It's the same as the value of just wanting the water.

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
So tell me this: You have two near surface gold ore deposits, with identical amounts of ore, and identical labor in extracting and processing. One has a yield of .23 ounces per ton of ore, the other has a yield of 1.8 ounces per ton of ore, both extracted by heap-leach process, which is more valuable?

Productivity and efficiency are factors too, as well as quantity.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
The point in learning economics is to learn the methods to aquire wealth and to benefit from it. Not to receive wealth as a benefit.

Japher, I can't respond to these contradictions.