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Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Enlightened nations? Joseph II was a much more radical enlightener than Frederick II.
Enlightened nations? Joseph II was a much more radical enlightener than Frederick II.
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Protestant nations kicked Catholic ass in the end. English is the lingua franca, not Italian, French or Spanish. That's what matters.(\__/)
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"Protestant nations kicked Catholic ass in the end."
Nice, dumb troll.
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Truth hurts?(\__/)
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Show me how that has anything to do with being protestant. Even Max Weber, if you have to.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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We may have to quote the manual for Europa Universalis, which would really be a shame.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Show me how that has anything to do with being protestant. Even Max Weber, if you have to.He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!Comment
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I used the word 'Democracy' to merely imply the rejection of the strict catholic church hierarchy. That's why the word is also quoted. The Catholic Church back then prohibited the individuals from reading the Bible. Luther intended to end that. The result was a diversification of the interpretation of the Bible, some of them more fundamentalist, some of them more enlightened.
Who handed control to the local rulers? The Catholic church and the Habsburgers certainly didn't do it voluntarily. Many local rulers always wanted to weaken the Imperial power and pursue their own agenda. Luther's ideal gave them a great ideological support. Sympathetic local rulers granted refuge to Luther and were also powerful enough to deter an immediate attack by Imperialist forces. Thus, a comprise was reached in 'Curios regio' edict. But a final confrontation eventually broke out 100 years later.
Luther's condemnation of peasants during the "Bauernkrieg" was smart politics.
As for science florishing in Florence, I don't think Bruno and Galileio would totally agree with you. The reformation, of course, was never intended to lead to scientific thinking. But enlightened/liberal interpretations of the Bible supported by many countries/rulers greatly helped the advance of science.
As for your example on Joseph II, his effective reign lasted from 1780 until 1790, too late and too short. When he died, even the French Revolution was 1 year old and George Washington had been a year in office. Most of his predecessors, all Karls and Ferdinands, were pretty much hard core conservatives.
Friedrich der Grosse may appear conservative compared to him, but F d G was certainly more enlightened than Karl II, Maria Theresia, and Louis XIV.Comment
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Show me the Catholic nations winning over the Protestant ones. Go ahead.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Show me how that has anything to do with being protestant. Even Max Weber, if you have to.(\__/)
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(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.Comment
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Yeah,
England kicked Spain's butt with a bunch of pirates;
England kicked French butt twice ( Spanish Succession War, 7 Seven Years War);
Sweden kicked Austria's butt in 30 Years War;
Prussia kicked Austria's butt twice (Silesia, Koenigsgrraetz);
Prussia kicked French butt twice (Waterloo, Sedan);
The best thing Catholic faction could offer was the massacre of Magdeburg by Count Tilly.
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Lord Merciless:
"I used the word 'Democracy' to merely imply the rejection of the strict catholic church hierarchy."
More a rejection of centralization than of hierarchy.
"The Catholic Church back then prohibited the individuals from reading the Bible."
Really? AFAIK all the Catholic Church did was banning unauthorized vernicular translations of the bible. The only incident of a ban of all vernicular translations was a regional, for Toulouse during the Albigensian "heresy".
So which provision of canonic law "prohibited the individuals from reading the Bible" ?
"Who handed control to the local rulers? The Catholic church and the Habsburgers certainly didn't do it voluntarily."
What are you talking about? Control of the church?
"Thus, a comprise was reached in 'Curios regio' edict."
Not exactly an edict, and it's "Cuius Regio".
"As for science florishing in Florence, I don't think Bruno and Galileio would totally agree with you."
That was a bit later, and Galileio wasn't exactly stopped apart from one particular point.
"But enlightened/liberal interpretations of the Bible supported by many countries/rulers greatly helped the advance of science."
The protestant interpretation was not more liberal. If anything, it was more strictly textual. Eg, how many creationists do you have in the catholic church?
"Friedrich der Grosse may appear conservative compared to him, but F d G was certainly more enlightened than Karl II, Maria Theresia, and Louis XIV."
Right with the exception of Maria Theresia, they were pretty much the same. As for Joseph II, don't forget that he was shaping much of his mother's plicies from the 1760s on.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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As someone mentioned the 30 year war: Wallenstein kicked out the Danes, and he beat back the Swedes - it wasn't Wallenstein who bit the dust at Lützen. The protestants only held on because - you guessed it - the French intervened.Originally posted by notyoueither
Show me the Catholic nations winning over the Protestant ones. Go ahead.
That was a common pattern. The Schmalkalden alliance would have been toast without France, too.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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Maybe you were more accurate in this regard. But anyway, the Bible was only translated into various local languages after the reformation had begun. Prior to that, the Bible was only available in Latin and basically out of reach of most people, even literate ones.Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Really? AFAIK all the Catholic Church did was banning unauthorized vernicular translations of the bible. The only incident of a ban of all vernicular translations was a regional, for Toulouse during the Albigensian "heresy".
So which provision of canonic law "prohibited the individuals from reading the Bible" ?
Control over what their subjects should believe.What are you talking about? Control of the church?
That's the key of my whole point: because people started interpreting the Bible on a more individual basis, the results went into both directions. The more fundamentalist ones were of course of no helpful to science, but the enlightened certainly did. And it was the enlightened England that finally broke through the medieval system into the modern world (constitution, capitalism, and industrialization).The protestant interpretation was not more liberal. If anything, it was more strictly textual. Eg, how many creationists do you have in the catholic church?
Too late, too short. Prussia was religiously liberal long before F d G came to power. It (still the Elector of Brandenburg) benefited greatly from skilled immigrants when Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes.Right with the exception of Maria Theresia, they were pretty much the same. As for Joseph II, don't forget that he was shaping much of his mother's plicies from the 1760s on.Comment
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I can't address all that in detail. Just:
"But anyway, the Bible was only translated into various local languages after the reformation had begun."
That's incorrect again. John Wycliff translated the bible into english around 1380. And I'm not even sure it was the first one. IIRC already Beda Venerabilis translated parts of the bible. Earlier translations were in romance languages.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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What German?Originally posted by HershOstropoler
I can't address all that in detail. Just:
"But anyway, the Bible was only translated into various local languages after the reformation had begun."
That's incorrect again. John Wycliff translated the bible into english around 1380. And I'm not even sure it was the first one. IIRC already Beda Venerabilis translated parts of the bible. Earlier translations were in romance languages.Comment
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How the hell did this become a pissing contest between Catholicism & Protestantism?
:shakes head:
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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Nice little threadjack. But it's about historical correctness, not faith - I'm agnostic.“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)Comment
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