Affirmative action..for Men.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GP
I read somewhere that women with similar academic backgrounds who are childless and unmarried do as well in dollar compensation as men who are childless and unmarried. I think a lot of the difference in pay comes from natural decisions that couples make to have children or to let the man concentrate on his career and the women act in more of a support role.

I really haven't noticed women getting slighted on pay in the work world. If anything there is a minor amount of affirmative action benmefit to women in male dominated companies. Women Ph.D. chemists were way more likely to get company visits at job time. And a black guy? They really got interested. Not sure that it really converted over to a big benefit for them. But you could see the interest.

The difference in pay (aka "the gender gap") comes almost entirely from decisions to multi-task career and family (ie leaving work for a few years to spend time with the baby) and the fact that men do almost all of the really dangerous work in this country, racking up something like 97% of all work-related fatalities. If someone is merely being a bigot there are a number of simple legal remedies for women. I have never seen a woman slighted in this way in all of my years in the working world.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Another theory (kind of the Feminism argument, I guess) is that the way schools run today tie directly into the strengths females have in learning, ie, sitting still and paying attention. Boys are more creative and better at spacial awareness. So some argue that teaching should be focused on boys' strengths as well.

We have to teach both genders well, that is a point well worth making. That may mean that we have to seperate the genders for some classes, or track people into the sorts of learning environments that they function well in regardless of their gender. Certainly we have a lot of work to do in early childhood education where the gender differences are most prominent and educational attitudes are easiest to form for better or worse. This will not be easy or cheap, but if we want schools to be more than just elaborate daycare centers then we have to take a look at the big picture and make some changes.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, very true, Sikander. A lot of times boy's are just passed over as being naturally disruptive and just 'bad learners' when they shouldn't be dismissed, but instead helped along.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, very true, Sikander. A lot of times boy's are just passed over as being naturally disruptive and just 'bad learners' when they shouldn't be dismissed, but instead helped along.

I'm a great example of someone who has been both helped and harmed by the education system. On the one hand I have a high IQ and educated parents, which meant that I could already read a bit before I went to school. On the other I was young developmentally and didn't have the advantage of attending kindergarten. I could barely scrawl my name in ugly block letters as we were learning to write in cursive. To this day my handwriting sucks, in part because I developed a bad attitude about it from frustration.

When I was in elementary school tracking was a very popular tool. At that time this meant that they would often form a class of the best students from one or two different ages. We moved a lot back then, and it was my luck that I got into three of these situations in different school systems, always the youngest of a two year spread advanced class. This was great for me as it offered the most challenge and excitement. When I got dumped into a regular classroom later on though (another system) the difference was so depressing that my interest in school never really recovered. By that time I had learned enough to study stuff on my own, and I did so to the neglect of the things we were learning at a snail's pace in class.

Gender wise things were better for boys back then. Recess was regular and physical education was stressed much more then than now. I always looked forward to both, as my energy was sometimes an impediment that led to frequent trips to the vice principal for punishment / counseling. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been without the physical outlet provided by recess and phys. ed.

In many ways I think that given the environment in schools today I would have never gone to college had I experienced it first-hand. I barely got through high school as it was, and only got into a halfway decent University due to high test scores. By the time I got to college my study habits were so bad that it was an ordeal to get through a lot of the coursework, unless it was a language class, economics, social science, history or biology I probably was marginal at best.

Interestingly, the best schools I ever attended were in the military. Those schools obviously could never afford to cater to a feminine learning style, quite the opposite. But dammit they managed to teach their lessons to a wide variety of people, men and women, from different classes and ethnic backgrounds, with often very different IQs and educational histories, and the results were astoundingly good in comparison to the public schools or university system. The method they used was very effective. Namely, they would teach the skill and immediately test it. No one slipped through the cracks. Students who quickly absorbed the material were sent to tutor those who had trouble, which reinforced the lesson for one while it gave another perspective and individual attention. It's simple and effective.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Very interesting take on things. I also agree with your last paragraph in that we need more schools that have different styles of learning. The problem is that kids learn in different ways (especially the genders), but there is one cookie cutter way of learning in the public school system. It's a major problem. Not everyone is the same, and they shouldn't be treated that way.

[Kidlicious]

I was a disruptive student also. In elementary I got plenty of spankings. For some reason I did well in 9th and 10th grade. Then in 11th grade I just dropped out and took the GED. I figured correctly that I wouldn't be able to handle college yet. So I joined the Navy (had to get my diploma first). When I did go to college I got straight As. Maybe the military taught me discipline. Or it could be that I was just older.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I was a disruptive student also. In elementary I got plenty of spankings. For some reason I did well in 9th and 10th grade. Then in 11th grade I just dropped out and took the GED. I figured correctly that I wouldn't be able to handle college yet. So I joined the Navy (had to get my diploma first). When I did go to college I got straight As. Maybe the military taught me discipline. Or it could be that I was just older.

Every time I hear a story like this I get jealous. I knew for a fact that I wanted to be in the Army when I was younger, but my parents and school counselors were unanimously against it. My parents in particular exerted a strong influence, I guess in part because my mother was a physician and my father was a college professor. Not having enough self-confidence to go my own way, I puttered through high school and enrolled in college. I wasted 5 years there before I decided to quit and join the Army. It was one of the best things I ever did, albeit a little late. When I got out of the service I no longer had the patience to screw around in school. I took courses that would directly benefit my employability, and went to work. It has paid off handsomely. I'm not rich, but I am in a financial situation that most people in this country would be envious of, no debt, a fair amount of equity, and a decent salary of which I save about 25%. And I got there by doing what I wanted to do, not my parents or counselors.

[Nubclear]

Finally, Americans realizing the flaws of their current educational system.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sikander
In many ways I think that given the environment in schools today I would have never gone to college had I experienced it first-hand. I barely got through high school as it was, and only got into a halfway decent University due to high test scores. By the time I got to college my study habits were so bad that it was an ordeal to get through a lot of the coursework, unless it was a language class, economics, social science, history or biology I probably was marginal at best.

This is me.

[TCO]

My problem is I am lazy. I respond best to an in your face drill sergeant method of learning. Somebody who tells me that I can't possibly learn this **** and that I'm an idiot will get my attention.

I wish school was more like sports. Actually once I played football in last part of High School, I started seeing how practice leads to performance and that doing math problems is analagous to doing ball-stripping drills as a d-back.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Finally, Americans realizing the flaws of their current educational system

Cause you would love it so if American males got military type training .

And we've always realized the flaws. You must be blind not to notice that .

[Shi Huangdi]

I don't see why you are so quick to blame the system here in this case. I say it is the boy's own fault if they aren't learning here. So it's the schools fault if these boys can't sit down through class, do their homework, study? What these boys who are failing to perform need here is discipline, so they can catch up with the boys and girls who can do well academically.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I say it is the boy's own fault if they aren't learning here.

I wouldn't go quite that far -- it's certainly the boys' fault to some extent, but it's also the system's fault for imposing an artificially disciplinarian environment on them. School was hell for me right up until high school, since the entire point of elementary school and jr. high was to teach me to learn how to behave. **** that, I was behaving just fine right up until they forced me to be bored out of my mind in a stuffy classroom, learning at a snail's pace. Half the time I'd get in trouble just for asking too many questions (aka "disrupting class" or "making the teacher feel intellectually inadequate"), which in turn spurred me on to get in trouble the other half of the time out of a need for revenge on my idiot teachers.

And what was the point of all of this unnecessary discipline? As soon as I got to high school, and especially when I got to college, I was suddenly encouraged to ask questions. It was as though my fairy godmother waved her wand, and I suddenly went from "being disruptive" to "showing initiative." Every job I've ever had has been the same way -- my bosses like the fact that I don't just sit there like a bump on a log. Looking back, I can see why the first nine years of my education were utter ****e -- they had absolutely nothing to do with real life, at all. They should have just pumped me full of sedatives for six hours a day for nine years -- it would have made their jobs a lot easier.

Is it my fault that I was a disruptive student? Sure, it's my fault to some extent, I could have just kept my mouth shut for nine years. Do I regret being a disruptive student? Hell no. Those first nine years of learning to be disruptive have certainly paid off. I pity my brother to some extent -- he learned how to behave too well.

[Dinner]

As a male I rather liked the 40-60 splite at our universities. It meant that even a bastard like myself could get laid on a friday night.

[Shi Huangdi]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by discipline, loinburger. I don't mean students shouldn't be able to ask questions, in fact every HS teacher and professor I have come across encourages students to participate in class. There is a distinction here though between active learning and class participation, and genuinely disruptive behavior that just interefers with the class. If you have been to HS you should know what I am talking about...