Windows Longhorn (3D interface, etc)

[Asher]

Well, I've not had any compatibility & driver problems with DirectX (and I've maintained my family's computers (and a good number of my friends'), and built many gaming rigs last summer for a high-end vendor), so that would be why
I never said anything about that "fact".

Even ATI's drivers these days are solid.

[faded glory]

Wow

[Asher]

I just don't know what to tell him, he predicted my response but my response is accurate and truthful.

I don't know anyone who has DirectX compatibility and driver problems with DirectX using the latest ATI or Nvidia drivers. I know people with SiS have a hard time, but if you buy SiS, what do you expect? It's like buying a Lada and whining about its reliability.

In fact, I think dv8ed is being rather whiney in general without any reason. Anyone can play the "well I'll bet it'll suck", "and I bet you say you don't have problems with something most people don't have problems with" roles but it's not very impressive.

I'm beginning to suspect that most of his problems are "PEBKAC" problems.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by Asher
I just don't know what to tell him, he predicted my response but my response is accurate and truthful.

I don't know anyone who has DirectX compatibility and driver problems with DirectX using the latest ATI or Nvidia drivers. I know people with SiS have a hard time, but if you buy SiS, what do you expect? It's like buying a Lada and whining about its reliability.

In fact, I think dv8ed is being rather whiney in general without any reason. Anyone can play the "well I'll bet it'll suck", "and I bet you say you don't have problems with something most people don't have problems with" roles but it's not very impressive.

I'm beginning to suspect that most of his problems are "PEBKAC" problems.

Of course they are. They're called users. Perhaps you've heard of them.

Users rarely update their drivers unless they have to. And then they don't do it right.

Users are the ones who flood the EA support lines every time a new game comes out because of DirectX problems.

Users buy SiS because they don't know any better or don't care.

There may be ways around these problems, but users won't know about them. That's why you have to ship a product that works out of the box. You've built some gaming boxes? I've supported thousands of users, I can tell you with some authority how such things work. Could I make it work if I ran the right programs and made the right sacrifices to the computing gods? Most likely. But users don't know the right programs to run and aren't allowed to read the computing grimore. You can't just ignore people because they're ignorant. If you could, I would have left you alone long ago...

[Asher]

If the users buy products with craptastic drivers and have problems with it, they can revert to the standard 2D display. It's not MS' fault that SiS can't make decent drivers.

I'm also curious as to what constitutes a "DirectX" problem.

Are you referring to DirectX driver problems, or problems with DirectX? Do you know the difference?

You're a tech support guy, people only call you when they've got problems. Most people don't have problems, you're not seeing the big picture.

And another feature of "My Games", by the way, is to ensure users have the latest drivers for them, since all too often some games require driver updates to function properly.

[Az]

And another feature of "My Games", by the way, is to ensure users have the latest drivers for them, since all too often some games require driver updates to function properly.

I am sure that another feature is ensuring that all games are legit, too.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher

If the users buy products with craptastic drivers and have problems with it, they can revert to the standard 2D display. It's not MS' fault that SiS can't make decent drivers.

Um. Isn't that the point of the HCL and driver certification programs?

Besides which, it is MS' problem when they then go and build their software in such a way that it is dependant on crappy drivers.

That's the advantage I was talking about the other day when I said that Apple's closed platform has helped them make better products, by the way.

I'm also curious as to what constitutes a "DirectX" problem.

Are you referring to DirectX driver problems, or problems with DirectX? Do you know the difference?

I'm referring primarily to driver problems. Although if you want to throw badly written software in there, you're welcome to do that as well.

You're a tech support guy, people only call you when they've got problems. Most people don't have problems, you're not seeing the big picture.

See, this is the attitude that causes bad software design. "If it works for most people, we don't care about the rest."

I heard one of my favorite "this person is an idiot" quotes a few years ago: "Well, the situation in Africa isn't that bad. I mean, only 15% of the people there are starving. That's not that many compared the the whole population."

Put it this way. At one point, I saw statistics on the calls that came in to the University's help desk last year. The biggest category was not networking, as you might expect since they are really only supposed to provide network support, or even the intranet client, which is a horribly ported Mac application. It was DirectX-related problems.

And another feature of "My Games", by the way, is to ensure users have the latest drivers for them, since all too often some games require driver updates to function properly.

Is this determined just by what the latest driver is, or by what the latest driver is that works with all games, or how? I've had to roll back drivers more than once to get them to work with a game...it seems that auto-updating may end up causing problems, although admittedly probably not as many as it would fix.

[Asher]

Originally posted by dv8ed
Um. Isn't that the point of the HCL and driver certification programs?

Besides which, it is MS' problem when they then go and build their software in such a way that it is dependant on crappy drivers.

I've never had problems with WHQL-certified drivers in WinXP.

And I'm pretty sure XP warns you if you install non-WHQL drivers...

[quote]I'm referring primarily to driver problems. Although if you want to throw badly written software in there, you're welcome to do that as well.

See, this is the attitude that causes bad software design. "If it works for most people, we don't care about the rest."

No, that's a red herring.
The problem is, if people buy bad products with bad drivers, they still blame MS because it's Windows that crashed. Nevermind that Windows passes off hardware interaction to drivers, that the hardware company makes. It's not MS' problem, nor their responsibility, that SiS makes crap drivers. They're doing what they can with fairly exhaustive WHQL-certifications (they take forever to get, they constantly send them back to Nvidia & Co and tell them to fix things), but there will always be people who have problems. It's the nature of complex devices such as computers, and the average person doesn't exactly know what they're doing.

Put it this way. At one point, I saw statistics on the calls that came in to the University's help desk last year. The biggest category was not networking, as you might expect since they are really only supposed to provide network support, or even the intranet client, which is a horribly ported Mac application. It was DirectX-related problems.

Again, you do not comprehend the difference between DirectX-related problems and driver problems. They are entirely different things.

One thing MS can fix, the other hardware vendors can fix.

If you've got problems with driver quality, blame the source of the problems, and find another scapegoat besides MS.

FYI, I've always found OpenGL drivers more finicky than DirectX drivers. But that's just me. Maybe it has to do with all the screwed up extensions OpenGL has...

Is this determined just by what the latest driver is, or by what the latest driver is that works with all games, or how? I've had to roll back drivers more than once to get them to work with a game...it seems that auto-updating may end up causing problems, although admittedly probably not as many as it would fix.

It'd update to the latest WHQL-certified drivers.

And, again, XP and above have the convenient driver-rollback settings if you don't like the changes in the new driver.