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  • Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


    Nah, I think England would have to be carved up a bit further. Doesn't England have provinces?
    The way that England is carved up is a statistician's nightmare and a sociologists dream. The historical origin of local government was the borough, invented I believe by Alfred the Great to help defend against the Danes.

    After the Normans, the Shires or county system can in (feudalism needing bigger bits of turf to carve up).

    Then, Industrial Revolution happens and the cities explode - so there's (eventual) representation of the labourers in the cities as well as the landed rich (started maybe after Napoleonics Wars, continuing into Victoria).

    What we are left with is a system of local government borders that changes with every election, and sometimes more often. Whole counties have disappeared, others have been invented (cities chopped off from their parent counties).

    Not to mention the thorny question of the non-English bits of Britain - Wales and Scotland.

    It's a mess. Don't even think about tidying it up.
    Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
    "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

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    • How about combining the Saxon parts (Sussex, Wessex, etc.) of the country into one state. That would be pretty much the southeastern part of the country. Then combine the old Angle parts, which would be the central east into another state, and the north into a third state, then the west into a fourth state?
      "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

      Comment


      • a) Wessex hasn't existed since the Normans landed in 1066.

        2) The old Anglo parts are basically everything outside of Scotland and Wales. The Central bits was called Mercia and was the battleground between the Danish and the Saxons - hence the use of Danish words like "mither" and a lot of town names that are Danish.

        3) The West bit is called Wales, and has never been a cultural part of England. They have their own language (Gaelic variation). Ok, politically they've been a part of England for hundreds of years - the heir to the throne is the Prince of Wales.

        4) You still haven't mentioned Scotland. Your not scared of them, are you?

        EDIT: Sorry, yes you did. The problem with having Scotland as a separate region is the population is only 1/10 of the rest of the coutnry. Would be a bit generous to invest them with 1/4 of the power.

        I said it was a mess. The American military term for rhymes with "oobar". You know what I mean.
        Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
        "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cruddy
          4) You still haven't mentioned Scotland. Your not scared of them, are you?
          No, I consider Scotland to be a seperate nation. It goes without saying that they would have their own state.
          "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

          Comment


          • Sandman, many of these are "local" issues. I am sure each state can have its own form of government and taxation, etc. I think England still has a state religion only because it has a Monarchy. Get rid of that, and the Brits would be quite happy with the US first amendment.
            State religion is an utter irrelevance. It has literally no effect on the running of the country. Most Americans attend church regularly. Most Brits don't. A British politician who brought up God would be laughed out of office.

            Gun control is not a local issue, it's part of the U.S. constitution. The "right" to bear arms is completely unacceptable for the average Brit. You'll have to change it.

            And get a decent electoral system.

            As to the new "Federation" government, we'd have to run elections for that post, wouldn't we? I can see it all now, Bill Clinton will be the first Federation president!
            Another reason why the "Federation" is a bad idea.

            Comment


            • If you got rid of the Monarchy, you would be swarmed by angry hand bag waving old ladies.

              Not to mention a lot of old vets for fought for "Monarch and country".

              I'm no fan of the monarchy - but getting rid of them would mean another civil war. It's not worth it.
              Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
              "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

              Comment


              • Sandman, On the 2nd Amendment - I agree, it does not need to be in the constitution.

                We would also have to discuss the death penalty. Maybe a grandfather clause to allow states that still have the penalty to keep it. Otherwise, the death penalty would be banned.

                I think a reunion is very doable.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ned
                  Sandman, On the 2nd Amendment - I agree, it does not need to be in the constitution.

                  I think a reunion is very doable.
                  AMAZED! An American brave enough to take on the gun lobby!

                  The reunion may look possible from that side of the Atlantic. From this side, it's a complete non-starter. There;s no popular will to aspire to the USA's current status

                  We've been there, done that, and for the vast majority of the population it was bad news being a superpower.

                  Your welcome to it, Ned.
                  Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                  "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cruddy
                    If you got rid of the Monarchy, you would be swarmed by angry hand bag waving old ladies.

                    Not to mention a lot of old vets for fought for "Monarch and country".

                    I'm no fan of the monarchy - but getting rid of them would mean another civil war. It's not worth it.
                    I don't think that you have to get rid of them. But, I do not believe that they should have any role whatsoever in a national government. This is another area we could "grandfather in" the monarchy for the canstate of England only. But, still we would have to guarantee the people of England freedom of religion. The monarch being the head of the Church of England would have to end.
                    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                    • Originally posted by Cruddy

                      We've been there, done that, and for the vast majority of the population it was bad news being a superpower.

                      Your welcome to it, Ned.
                      Cruddy, is this fear of again being a superpower the source of the opposition by many in England to joining the European Union?
                      http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                      • It's a problem, Ned. An attack on the monarch can still get you strung up, your guts extracted and being sliced into 4 or so pieces. You see, we do have a constitution - it's invisible though. Ok, the official term is "unwritten", but it amounts to the same thing. This consitution is essentially the deal done between parliament and the royals to ensure a) the survival of the monarchy and b) it's complete lack of real power for war mongering. All the monarch can do is open Parliament - they can't close it anymore.

                        Messing with an invisible consitution can't be done. Either you have a monarchy - or you don't.

                        There's a lof of minor niggles as well, but they are the British untouchables. The only way to end this situation is by a power takeover; like I said, civil war.

                        It's a very stagnant system. It was designed to be, to ensure continuity at a time when we'd had enough of military dictator's (Cromwell) and "religious nutter" politics.
                        Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                        "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                        Comment


                        • I wouldn't say fear - revullsion is a closer word.

                          My dad, for instance, grew up in the slums of Liverpool during WW2. There's no way he'd ever want to be part of a super empire again - not when we've got "free at point of delivery" healthcare, pension rates, housing laws, and a whole raft of measures that ensure his nightmare childhood isn't repeated.

                          I'm not saying the UK is perfect, or even Great. But it's fairly peaceful, we have fought for our rights, and we're not about to dump them in the toilet in the name of prosperity.
                          Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                          "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                          Comment


                          • Oops! Misread your post. No, the opposition to the EU thing is historical distrust of Europe.

                            We've been messing them around for so long, and we're scared they'll do the same to us.

                            Full financial union with Europe is a big deal here politically. As a guy who's seen bits of Europe at close range, I don't have a problem with it. But I'm in the minority.
                            Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                            "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by PLATO1003 I'll stop when they stop.

                              French stands on issues are becoming increasingly untenable. They are after raw power in Europe and no longer care about right and wrong.

                              France Bashing = Calling a spade a spade. They make it to easy.
                              And I'll be betting rather heavily that anyone US-bashing will have you and several hundred other posters down on them like a ton of rectangular building things...
                              "Love the earth and sun and animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown . . . reexamine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the richest fluency" - Walt Whitman

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                              • In order to get rid of monarchy, we first have to wait until E2 kicks the bucket. Taking on a monarchy under dumbo Charles will be a lot easier.

                                The current death penalty system is already regulated on a state-level in the US. At least 1/3 of US states don't have the death penalty.

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