Rugby - Advantage!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Ali Williams has been cleared by the disciplinary panel on the grounds that stamping on Lewsey's head was incidental and inadvertent

This is incredible... and disheartening.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


I'm about to go out for Sunday lunch but I just had to tell you I'm framing this bit!

I have to call it as I see it. I'm still trying to mop the blood out of my keyboard.

You were right however - Jonno failed to stop the infringements after clear warnings - not his best captaincy although Dally did admit he made the call on his error as J had warned him to be careful.

So Dallaglio's performance on his way off the field - head-shaking, bemused grin as if to say the ref's a f*ckwit - and continued while sitting on the bench was all for show? Dallaglio's performance was, unfortunately, only a continuation of J****'s attitude to the ref for most of the match - contempt. Hopefully, for your sake, that will change because it could prove costly.

Eddie really is tough isn't he - it seems insane to drop Flatley?

It turns out Flatley went out "celebrating with friends" after the match, slept in, and missed the session. Andrew Walker was dumped (the first time) for a fairly similar thing. Yes, it's tough, but they know the rules. What does one do? Bend the rules because there's an important match next week? What example does that set?

It seems either Joe Roff or Nathan Gray will slot into 5/8. Their sum total combined experience in the position in their lives is about ten minutes. If young Matt Giteau had been fit, he'd've got the job. Nathan Gray is more likely to get the job because he comes off the bench to do it, leaving Roff in an unchanged backline. Matt Rogers and Matt Burke have both been called into the squad. Rogers has now had two club matches back after 3 months off with his broken foot, so I'd expect him to join the bench to cover just about every position between #10 and #15 (inclusive).

[finbar]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Now I know finbar is ill. The English captain (from Leicester) must really have been astounding.

It was a truly Herculean effort. He carried them. It was just a pity his attitude to the ref undermined his overall performance.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Ali Williams has been cleared by the disciplinary panel on the grounds that stamping on Lewsey's head was incidental and inadvertent

Unless the disciplinary panels take this seriously, then things will get really nasty onn the pitch

It certainly wasn't accidental, which I assume is what they've said. This gets back to something we've discussed before - consistency, whether on-field with the refs; or off-field with the judiciary.

At least when the Welsh pack took on Waugh for trying to kill the ball, they went nowhere near his head (probably because the last sending off for head-stamping may have cost Llanelli the Heineken cup)

Yes, it was good, old-fashioned, legitimate rucking. Waugh got what he deserved.

[Alexander's Horse]

Seem to be some major refereeing problems in rugby at the moment. Why?

[Tamerlin]

There are major diffrences in the interpretation of the laws when you consider the Northern Hemisphere and the Southern Hemisphere. In my opinion, the SH interpretations are changing the nature of the game and SH Rugby is slowly evolving into a game that is no more faithful to the spirit of the Game of Rugby. I do believe that the leniency of the SH referees is even altering the outcome of the games opposing the NH and the SH as the SH interpretations are more and more widespread and are now prevailing over the laws of the game as they are applied in Europe. That means the European players are almost confronted to a different set of laws when they are opposed to a SH team, and that is not fair especially as a Rugby World Cup is being held at the end of the year. Though the game played in the Southern Hemisphere is spectacular it is not the Game of Rugby as I like it.

There is also a problem in France as the referees are really bad and are often spoiling the games.

All in all, I think the referees are today the sickness of our beloved sport.

[Alexander's Horse]

I think the Southern Hem refs put more emphasis on keeping the game flowing rather than being sticklers for the rules.

I see this even at very junior level.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Seem to be some major refereeing problems in rugby at the moment. Why?

Good question. There are many answers.

Despite the IRB's various attempts at clarification, a number of the laws - particularly dealing with the goings on at the breakdown - rely on the refs' judgement. A tackled player is required to release the ball, but how long is the tackled player given to release the ball? The tackler is required to release the tackled player (when on the ground) but how long is the tackler given? Some refs see the requirement as instantaneously, some see it as immediately, which are marginally different things. Some refs allow even more leeway. So you're dealing with margins, and individual judgements on those margins.

This year, for a while anyway, it seemed that the IRB had told the world's refs that "instantaneously" was the go. Both in the NH and SH, refs were pinging players who didn't release the ball (or the tackled player) absolutely instantaneously. That, of course, raised the question of whether the pinged player had had time to do what was required. Now, from my observation anyway, the "instantaneously" seems to have disappeared and refs are back to making individual judgement calls.

Then there's the lineout. The law requires a tunnel of space between the two lines of jumpers. For whatever reason, some refs police it, some don't. Same with the law that requires the ball to be thrown straight into the lineout. For whatever reason, some police it, some - unless the throw is totally wayward - don't. And, worse, some refs will police it sometimes during a game but not all the time. See below for the consistency problem.

OTOH, I've often thought that the modern game places great demands on the ref. The ball can travel at great speed, there's one ref on the field with one set of lungs and one pair of eyes. Suddenly he's at a breakdown or ruck and he's watching the activity around the ball at the same time as he's policing offside meaning he's having to look in three different directions. It's a big ask, and they're often relying on their touchys' observations. Trouble is, the touchys can be a long way from the action and watching from a less than satisfactory angle. Earlier this year, someone did suggest a second ref on the field as a second set of eyes, but it was laughed at. The AFL now uses three umpires but then the AFL now resembles basketball more than any sort of football.

The biggest problem for rugby is refereeing consistency and/or lack of consistency. Not just consistency between different refs' judgements, but, more importantly, consistency from a ref within a game. If a ref makes his judgements to a consistent pattern in a game, fine. Everyone knows where they stand. Too often, though, a ref, within a game, can confuse everyone with different interpretations of identical situations.

As someone once said, rugby is one of the simplest games on earth. Somehow or other, along the way, it has turned into one of the most complicated. That, I suspect, along with human failings, is the bottom line to the problem.

[Havak]

I read that the French had been unable to score despite lots of opportunities, notably because of ball-handling errors.

I only caught a few minutes of the game (as the fourth game of the day I was pushing my luck a little) but it was error strewn even in that small timeframe.

How can a referee ignore such basic laws like offsides and especially turned scrums.

Steve Lander, like Chris White, took tri-nations duties in 2002. Draw your own conclusions.

Ali Williams has been cleared by the disciplinary panel on the grounds that stamping on Lewsey's head was incidental and inadvertent

It’s very hard to agree with this ruling. How the lad had the gall to claim it was accidental is beyond me.

Hopefully, for your sake, that will change because it could prove costly.

It can be a problem. He unfortunately knows the law book too well for a skipper in some ways and his personality is not to back down an inch. On the whole though his positives greatly outweigh these negatives.

Dallaglio admitted in a post match interview with Sky that he “made the call” to kill that phase of play himself – so I have to assume all the grimacing was show-boating yes.

Interestingly Lewsey also gave an interview after being stitched up. He said he was furious after his head was stamped on and complained to his skipper who (and I paraphrase here) said “it happens, get over it. Sort it out after the game”. Such a refreshingly pragmatic attitude?

What does one do? Bend the rules because there's an important match next week? What example does that set?

At a guess that the players not the coach are in charge – and I agree it’s not on to do so. But Gray in the breach – hmmm?

It was a truly Herculean effort. He carried them. It was just a pity his attitude to the ref undermined his overall performance.

I think that was nicely illustrated by him calling the ref ‘mate’ all the time?

I’d like him to have a temperament closer to Ealesy but I’ll settle for his qualities as they are. As I said last week his onfield presence as a skipper will be very hard to replace for club and country.

As someone once said, rugby is one of the simplest games on earth. Somehow or other, along the way, it has turned into one of the most complicated. That, I suspect, along with human failings, is the bottom line to the problem.

That was actually a very interesting analysis. I think you are right that the ref now needs to keep an eye on so much that it’s hardly possible to do so.

The England game gave a perfect example – as Spencers boot made contact with the ball Howlett is at least two metres ahead of play. The ref though has his back to the fullback and the touchy is watching the ball and out of position for judging the game line.
One spectacular score later (guys like Howlett don’t need starts like that and it’s not fair when they get them) and unhappy English fans are calling the ref – but in this case unfairly IMO – even I don’t expect refs to have eyes in the back of their heads and he was doing the right thing in watching the ball.

It’s tricky. I still maintain a balance is needed between continuity and competition – and we aren’t right on that at the moment. I’m also coming to accept Finbar’s view on the gulf between S12 and Test – I don’t think S12 is helping your players any more as it’s not preparing them for test rugby.

I see the usual reactions have been rolled out, not least Mr Jones making sure everyone knows ‘England kicked to victory’ and ‘we know NZ are slow starters’. Let me balance that by saying that England did not play well, that this is the tenth month of our season and that a lot of our players apparently reach the IRB game limit next weekend (until the clock resets in August). So whilst, despite S12 having been run, one might claim the Kiwis are slow starters it really doesn’t excuse them to my mind.

My biggest fear for the ABs is that they will smash Wales this coming Saturday and then somehow convince themselves everything is all right again. If that happens they may face a shock again when the French pack turns up.

[ravagon]

Nuts.
Thats pretty much all I can say.
Not that I happened to see it of course. As usual.

Originally posted by Havak

My biggest fear for the ABs is that they will smash Wales this coming Saturday and then somehow convince themselves everything is all right again. If that happens they may face a shock again when the French pack turns up.

Ironically thats exactly how the Australian media hyped the wallabies victory over the weekend. Apparently the relevant (this week anyway) factor is the number of tries scrored, hence none of the other major teams "could match Australia's performance".
They just forgot to mention "Wales" in the same breath.
Funny that ...

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
I only caught a few minutes of the game (as the fourth game of the day I was pushing my luck a little) but it was error strewn even in that small timeframe.

It was awful, a festival of knock ons!

Steve Lander, like Chris White, took tri-nations duties in 2002. Draw your own conclusions.

That was actually a very interesting analysis. I think you are right that the ref now needs to keep an eye on so much that it’s hardly possible to do so.

I already talked about it I think but a few years ago an interesting experience was made during a Junior RWC played in France. It was decided two referees would be present on the field and that they would alternatively take charge of the scrums, the lineouts and of the "offside" watch. Though some aspects of the way to manage a pair of referees were a bit nebulous and still needed some thoughts the experiences proved successful.

The number of fouls (offsides, scrums' cheats...) was divided by two and the overall gaming time was largely increased (almost doubled as far as I remember). The players, the referees, the crowd were very pleased and this experience was so successful the IRB decided... not to renew it.

My biggest fear for the ABs is that they will smash Wales this coming Saturday and then somehow convince themselves everything is all right again. If that happens they may face a shock again when the French pack turns up.

If the French players does not wake up very quickly they will be crushed like flies...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
It can be a problem. He unfortunately knows the law book too well for a skipper in some ways and his personality is not to back down an inch. On the whole though his positives greatly outweigh these negatives.

If I were English, I would quite agree. OTOH, he could have cost the team on the weekend. Presumably he wouldn't adopt the same attitude in a more important match.

Interestingly Lewsey also gave an interview after being stitched up. He said he was furious after his head was stamped on and complained to his skipper who (and I paraphrase here) said “it happens, get over it. Sort it out after the game”. Such a refreshingly pragmatic attitude?

Very sensible. J**** had already drawn the ref's attention to it.

At a guess that the players not the coach are in charge – and I agree it’s not on to do so. But Gray in the breach – hmmm?

It's literally a matter of who's available. Matt Rogers was tried there in one of the Waratahs' trial matches and flubbed it trying to do too much. But he's only two club matches back from 3 months off anyway. He'll be on the bench when he really shouldn't be. He might even start, which would be ridiculous, but that's the situation we're in. Matt Giteau's out of action with his cracked kneecaps. Even Josh Valentine, the scrummy with so much potential who can also play 5/8, is over your way with the U 21 team. (We won't mention what the U 21 Wallabies did to your lot the other day! )

So who's left? Nathan Gray and Joe Roff are the only ones in the squad who have ever played 5/8 and even then, as I said, for about 10 minutes in their careers. If they use Roff, they break up the Roff/Latham combo which, under the current weakened circumstances, is crucial to us. Besides which, they'll be needed to protect Wendell when Wilkinson starts bombing him from the kick off on Saturday. Gray's got very good hands, good reflexes, can think, and certainly doesn't lack courage. Under the circumstances, it's the best we can do.

I think that was nicely illustrated by him calling the ref ‘mate’ all the time?

I wonder if he calls any ref "Sir" as our wee George does.

That was actually a very interesting analysis. I think you are right that the ref now needs to keep an eye on so much that it’s hardly possible to do so.

You only have to watch them desperately trying to watch offside and the action around the ball. It's ridiculous.

I’m also coming to accept Finbar’s view on the gulf between S12 and Test – I don’t think S12 is helping your players any more as it’s not preparing them for test rugby.

How do you prepare for Test rugby? It can't happen in S12 because of the vastly different standards within the competition.

So whilst, despite S12 having been run, one might claim the Kiwis are slow starters it really doesn’t excuse them to my mind.

Seemed to me it was their first Test for seven months and they played like it. Their handling in the first half was appalling, which is very unlike them. I would expect natural improvement.

My biggest fear for the ABs is that they will smash Wales this coming Saturday and then somehow convince themselves everything is all right again. If that happens they may face a shock again when the French pack turns up.

Not if the ABs re-christen themselves the Pumas.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Not if the ABs re-christen themselves the Pumas.

"Stray Cats" would be enough...

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Ironically thats exactly how the Australian media hyped the wallabies victory over the weekend. Apparently the relevant (this week anyway) factor is the number of tries scrored, hence none of the other major teams "could match Australia's performance".
They just forgot to mention "Wales" in the same breath.
Funny that ...

You read the wrong papers, watch the wrong TV or listen to the wrong radio. Here in Sydney, the media worth reading called the Wallaby performance for what it was - very disappointing.

I quote Greg Growden in the Sydney Morning Herald:

"Australia scored five tries, but there were too many miserable moments, especially in the second half, for the Wallabies to believe that they have the composure or ability to overhaul England in Melbourne on Saturday night.

Wales lacked numbers, names and big-time performers. But that did not stop them from making Australia look ordinary for long stretches of play, and their swarming defensive work, particularly in tight, had the caused the Wallabies to make a number of ridiculous mistakes at the breakdown".

Hype? Um, I think not.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I already talked about it I think but a few years ago an interesting experience was made during a Junior RWC played in France. It was decided two referees would be present on the field and that they would alternatively take charge of the scrums, the lineouts and of the "offside" watch. Though some aspects of the way to manage a pair of referees were a bit nebulous and still needed some thoughts the experiences proved successful.

The number of fouls (offsides, scrums' cheats...) was divided by two and the overall gaming time was largely increased (almost doubled as far as I remember). The players, the referees, the crowd were very pleased and this experience was so successful the IRB decided... not to renew it.

I've forgotten who suggested the idea here - someone reputable, I recall - but it was laughed at. Providing the two refs always knew who was meant to be doing what, it would have to help the game.