I want to be a socialist

[yavoon]

norway cheats, its basically a socialist saudi arabia.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Willem
In any argument there are the two extremes, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Maoism/Stalinism/Marxism are one extreme, the laissez faire approach of the US is the other.

The US is not laissez-faire. Look, it even has anti-trust laws, and the government does intervene to save companies at times.

[yavoon]

yah honestly when the gov't can take up to half of ur money and ur economy is being accused of being lasseiz faire u wonder just how left the crowd has gotten.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


The US is not laissez-faire. Look, it even has anti-trust laws, and the government does intervene to save companies at times.

Of course, just like China is moving to the right and adopting free market principles, the US is moving left and adopting Socialist ones. That just proves my point, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. The US didn't always have those laws, they were enacted when society began to see the abuses that a totally capitalist system can create.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by yavoon
yah honestly when the gov't can take up to half of ur money and ur economy is being accused of being lasseiz faire u wonder just how left the crowd has gotten.

No one in the US pays half their money in taxes. The highest tax bracket it 35%, and no one pays 35%, because all the brackets before that get applied too (you pay 15% of the first $10K, 25$ on the next, etc.--not actual numbers but the principle applies), plus there are deductions and examptions. Anyone who is paying out half their money in taxes needs to fire their accountant and get a new one (unless your sole income is an inheritence).

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Willem
Of course, just like China is moving to the right and adopting free market principles, the US is moving left and adopting Socialist ones.

Actually, the US is moving further right, and trying to deregulate. It looks as though the Dem's are gonna try and make universal health care a campaign issue, so we'll see.

[yavoon]

ur forgetting state taxes. the highest federal rate is 35 and there are lotsa state places that can get up to 15. oh and dont forget sales tax, gas tax, cigarette tax. lotsa stuff hits u and it adds up.

[chequita guevara]

It still doesn't add up. First off, state taxes are deductable. Sales tax is a small percentage of what's left (depending on your state). Most of my income, like most people's goes to things that are non-taxable, like rent or morgages (the interest on which is tax deductable), food (which almost no one taxes), and utilities (which are taxed, but at much lower rates).

On top of that, most people aren't in the 35% bracket, and again, even those that are don't pay 35%. I was in the 15% bracket last year, but my effective tax rate was about 8% because of deductions, exemptions, and the like. The year I was in the 24% tax braket my effective tax rate was only around 10%, becuase most of my income wasn't taxed at 24%.

Anyone who pays 50% or more of their income in taxes in the US needs to have their account murdered.

[Willem]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Actually, the US is moving further right, and trying to deregulate. It looks as though the Dem's are gonna try and make universal health care a campaign issue, so we'll see.

Change never occurs in a straight line, there's always a certain amount of bouncing back and forth. If you compare the US today to what it was like in the 1800's, it's become downright socialist.

[chequita guevara]

Depends on your definition of socialism.

[Willem]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Depends on your definition of socialism.

I said in comparison to then. I'm certainly not implying that the US is socialist by any means, but it's slowly moving in that direction. The Europeans are moving quicker, as is Canada, but the US will eventually end up somewhere in the middle of the spectrum since that will turn out to be the most efficient way of running a post-industrial society.

Pure socialism is an ideal that will probably never be attained, it will simply coexist alongside capitalism in some form. Each form has it's strengths and it's weaknesses, and with both working together we'll eventually end up with a pretty good system.

[yavoon]

now ur just quibblin to try and play misdirection on ur original woefully inaccurate statement. the thot that the US is running a lasseiz faire economy is absurd. and ur trying to drag me into this meta-argument.

I'm not gna quibble over who gets how much deductions from where. its true that at the top end the % taxed flattens out due to money paid to accountants and trickier deductions et al.

[Imran Siddiqui]

No!!! Scandinavian standard of living is higher!!!

Actually it isn't. Standard of Living means GDP per capita. The US is, I believe, 3rd behind Luxembourg and Switzerland, IIRC.

[Willem]

Originally posted by yavoon
now ur just quibblin to try and play misdirection on ur original woefully inaccurate statement. the thot that the US is running a lasseiz faire economy is absurd. and ur trying to drag me into this meta-argument.

In comparison to other countries, yes it is. But I'm also looking at it from a historical perspective. The US became an economic powerhouse by fully embracing the concepts of a laissez faire economy many years ago, much more so than any other nation. Over time that's changed obviously, but there's still that undercurrent running through it's system.

[yavoon]

yes but we've long since abandoned that. we're more lasseiz faire than others, sure. but to say we're lasseiz faire is still absurd. I mean if the gov't takes 80% of ur money in country A and 75% in country B does that make B like the bastion of capitalism?

but yes otherwise I agree with u. we try to hold on to our freer markets stronger than others in europe.