The quest for REAL individualism (isn't as hard as you might think)

[Asher]

I was a skater / computer geek / shy-guy-no-one-talked to / shadow lurker in High School.

I'm now a (gay) computer geek with weird political beliefs, no religion, no S.O., and a huge dose of apathy.

I don't know what category that puts me under.

[orange]

Wow... way too be judgemental, dude. You sure are unique in that. Gee - I wonder if Fight Club was on your mind at all?

Only for the Khakis quote.

Have I done something to offend you? I can't help but notice that any time you respond to something I say, it's just a bit crass. I don't recall having any problems with you...did I miss something, or am I making this up?

[Asher]

For the record, there's nothing wrong with most LiveJournals. The ones where people just ***** piss me off, though.

[Drake Tungsten]

You still haven't explained why being an individual is inherently better than following the crowd. As I said before, individualism for its own sake is stupid. You need to have some sort of reason why individualism is better than collectivism before you start condemning others for conformity.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, Drake, I think part of it is that conforming to a group results in a lack of real critical thinking of what you are doing. You accept what the group believes. Being an individual allows you to think things through before you decide which positions you follow.

[Drake Tungsten]

Well, Drake, I think part of it is that conforming to a group results in a lack of real critical thinking of what you are doing. You accept what the group believes. Being an individual allows you to think things through before you decide which positions you follow.

Why is this preferable? Isn't the collective intelligence of the group greater than whatever measly thinking skills the individual brings to the table?

Besides, are you really supposed to be proud of the use of your critical thinking skills to determine such mundane questions as what clothes you should wear or whether Eminem rocks or sucks? You might have a point on more important topics like politics or religion, but for most topics you'll encounter in your life going with the crowd isn't any less noble than making up your own mind. Why waste your time thinking about the banal when society does it for you?

[Kidlicious]

Good point Drake. I think its ok to be more individualistic if that's who you are, and it's ok to be more socialistic if that's who you are. That doesn't change the fact that we sympathize with each other when one of us is in need. Even an individualistic person can have a lot of sympathy for other human beings.

[monolith94]

"I can't help but notice that any time you respond to something I say, it's just a bit crass."
Ummmm no! I remember this as being the only time I've directly responded to you, in fact. I have no idea where this is coming from. Where I'm coming from is I am reading some tangential ramblings that provide no real insight and are rather hypocritical in their methods. I was annoyed. I'm getting a bit tired of pseudo-intellectualism, especially when it's used to elevate the speaker above others.

But other than that, I have no problems with you.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Isn't the collective intelligence of the group greater than whatever measly thinking skills the individual brings to the table?

The problem is when you subsume your entire thought process to the 'collective intelligence'. If you assume collective intelligence is greater than any individual, then what's the point in thinking.

Oh, and I must totally disagree that collective intelligence is always greater than the intelligence of an individual. The masses aren't always right.

Why waste your time thinking about the banal when society does it for you?

Why think at all when society does it for you? If you say that picking out your clothes and what music to listen to should be directed by society, then where do you stop? If society decides what music you listen to, why shouldn't it decide what political beliefs or religions are available to you?

[tinyp3nis]

Why is this preferable? Isn't the collective intelligence of the group greater than whatever measly thinking skills the individual brings to the table?

No way! Only if the people in the group are much very much alike.
Usually the weakminded benefit from the group. The smart ones do not. The smart ones could however use the group to harvest knowledge for their superior brains. But that is just using intelligence as a factor, there of course are many other benefits depending on situation where intelligent person should be in a group of people with less intelligence.

Nothing wrong with agreeing with the crowd. Just think about it before you do that's all.

[Drake Tungsten]

If you say that picking out your clothes and what music to listen to should be directed by society, then where do you stop?

I never stated that you should base your clothing or music tastes on societal trends. I said that I don't see why behaving in that fashion is fundamentally inferior to making all those decisions on an individual basis.

In American society it is often assumed that an individual action is inherently better than a conformist one. I don't think that this is the case; going along with the group is often the easier and more productive means of behavior. There's a time and a place for both collectivism and individualism; the wise person acts accordingly.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I said that I don't see why behaving in that fashion is fundamentally inferior to making all those decision on an individual basis.

Because you shouldn't subsume to the whims of a majority simply because 'everyone is doing it'. Think before you decide to act or look a certain way, not just because the people in your area think it's the way to go.

It ends up in a slippery slope argument, I guess. If you subsume to the will of the majority in individual choices in one area, why not all of them?

There is nothing worse than a person who simply spouts party line for no reason other than the party says so. That is the end result of going with the flow, and if you say it is ok to simply go with the flow for the sake of doing so in some areas, its hard to say that in other areas you shouldn't.

[Az]

Drake:

[Drake Tungsten]

Because you shouldn't subsume to the whims of a majority simply because 'everyone is doing it'.

Why not? I know the basic American response is to abhor conformity, but what's the reasoning behind it? That's what I'm really driving for.

What's so wrong with going with the crowd on some aspects of your life? Why upset group harmony and waste your own time and energy just to be an individual? Does it really matter whether you came to a reasoned conclusion on the value of khaki pants or Eminem in the long run?

It ends up in a slippery slope argument, I guess.

A fallacy, you know.

There is nothing worse than a person who simply spouts party line for no reason other than the party says so.

As long as their are some people actually thinking about things at the party level, I don't see what's so wrong with it. We can't all be experts on everything, so you have to spout off the ideas of others as if they're your own from time to time. I'm busy doing that very thing on an IPE paper.

[Az]

Drake, I am agreeing with you too much. I think I became a member of your herd, and lost all of my individuality.