What separates a Mac from a PC?

[Skanky Burns]

(which remember was designed specifically to slow typers down so as to prevent jams)

That is the point I am refuting. The keyboard was not designed to be slow - it was designed to allow the fastest possible typing with the technology they had available. By moving the letters used more often further apart, it allowed a typist to type a 2nd letter as the first was still coming back up, rather than having to wait for the first letter to finish coming up before typing the next letter.

While the net effect of the qwerty keyboard layout is slower typing compared to optimal layouts that are well within our technological capabilities, it wasn't designed to be slow at typing.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

If the Windows start getting too cluttered, Windows can (by default and this is optional) group together the program's windows under one entry, called "Trillian", and when you click on it, a list appears above it with all of the active windows and their titles.

I hate to say this Asher, but that's roughly what the Dock does. If you have a couple of windows minimized it looks roughly like that, except the names aren't there. But you have to be pretty stupid not to remember which is which.

If you have more than a few windows open you click on the Application icon and it provides a similar list to the one you illustrated. I described this in my previous post; apparently you didn't read it.

And FYI I had a look around, and most of the Dock haters I could find still said that the Mac interface spanks Windows.

Anyway here's the picture that proves my point.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

I can't think of a mac program I'd want to open more than once. In fact I can't think of any reason to do this.

how about finder or explorer windows?

I think Asher meant opening the same program multiple times rather than opening multiple windows in the same app. You can do this in Windows 3.1 (I remember doing it by accident a couple of times) but what's the point?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Skanky Burns


Jamming in typewriters was caused by pressing two letters that were close together down at the same time (or one after the other). As such, the QWERTY keyboard layout combatted this by moving often-used keys away from each other so that you could type fast without jamming.

OK - kudos to you for the hairsplit. Of course the keyboard wasn't designed so that you would type as slowly as possible.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MRT144
are mac users so dense that they dont understand why someone would want to run multiple instances of the same program? or are they still coming to grips with being able to run more than one program at the same time?

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. On OS X I can run every single app I have at the same time and the system will take it easily (good memory management apparently). I actually tried to open as many as I could and got bored halfway thru the utilties folder.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

In the Windows world, we've got icons and descriptive text, which is actually much more functional.

Are you telling me that Windows users are too dumb to understand that the Stamp icon is their Mail.app and that the green "X" is Excel.

As I've said, that's not the issue. Apps that are running and apps that are not running are two separate things, mixing them together is just...wrong. Counter-intuitive.

So it's so counterintuitive to actually look at the Dock. Drake is right, you have to be a 24 carat ****** not to be able to see which apps are open and which aren't.

You may be used to it now, and I'm sure anyone can be once you start using it, but this is why Apple's marketshare only continues to shrink. Everyone else looks at it and thinks "what the ****?" and Apple fans jump up and down crying about how it's great and you "get used to it".

Red herring......

Oh gee, I don't know.
1) Multiple internet browser instances (so plugins or whatever don't bring down all your windows if there's a crash)

Well my browser hasn't ever crashed, despite being a Beta version. I guess this is an IE problem.

2) Multiple AIM/ICQ/MSN programs

Multiple windows of the same program or multiple launches of the same program? If the latter, why on earth would anyone want to do that?

3) Multiple file browser/finder windows

That's not what you said earlier on. I can post you pictures of me using multiple windows, what's the big deal about that?

Drake is right - this isn't one of your better efforts.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Are you telling me that Windows users are too dumb to understand that the Stamp icon is their Mail.app and that the green "X" is Excel.

You are telling me that the first time you saw the Green X (without text) you could identify that it was Excel? Yeah, right .

Multiple windows of the same program or multiple launches of the same program? If the latter, why on earth would anyone want to do that?

Well one reason is if you have two different screennames.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
I hate to say this Asher, but that's roughly what the Dock does. If you have a couple of windows minimized it looks roughly like that, except the names aren't there. But you have to be pretty stupid not to remember which is which.

It's nice and all that Apple copied MS again with regards to that list, but as you can probably figure out by simple logic, it requires more clicks to access files that way (and indeed, it doesn't even count how many windows you have open for that document) than it does with Windows' which displays all windows.

Sure, it works, it's just not as efficient or even as well designed. I've said this before, I'll say it again: Apple was more concerned with how purty it was versus how effective it is.

People wonder why Apple is losing ground so fast in the media industry.

And FYI I had a look around, and most of the Dock haters I could find still said that the Mac interface spanks Windows.

Oh, well that settles that, then!

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Are you telling me that Windows users are too dumb to understand that the Stamp icon is their Mail.app and that the green "X" is Excel.

1) There are people with memory problems (I'm working in a retirement home this summer, trust me on this one)
2) It's fundamentally a dumber idea to just show an icon, and when you click on it, list the windows open for it. It just makes more sense, from an efficiency and functionality perspective, to list all the windows with an application icon and then the title next to it (ie, the W icon for Word, then "Steve Jobs is my Hero" as the title). It requires less clicks, you can easily see at one glance what you have running and open
3) Apple doesn't have the equivalent "tray" functionality which is very useful. Why doesn't Apple have it?

So it's so counterintuitive to actually look at the Dock. Drake is right, you have to be a 24 carat ****** not to be able to see which apps are open and which aren't.

I'm wondering if you're really this dense?
I'm not saying you can't see what's open and what's not, I'm saying it's stupid to clump them together in a pseudo-random fashion because they're fundamentally different things. It's not as easy to see at a glance what's running and what's not, compared to Windows.

Apple basically took very basic functionality out of the Windows Taskbar, made QuickLaunch on by default, and removed all of the extra usefulness from it.

While at the same time Apple users ***** about all the stuff MS "steals" from Apple.

Well my browser hasn't ever crashed, despite being a Beta version. I guess this is an IE problem.

That's funny, my friends' Chimera (Camino now) crashes constantly. So does his Safari.

Again, he's a power user. He's in computer science.

You Philosophy types probably don't do anything that could remotely break a computer, since all you need to do is load Word and write what's on your mind.

Multiple windows of the same program or multiple launches of the same program? If the latter, why on earth would anyone want to do that?

You're the philosopher, and you can't think of any situations?

What if I wanted to do two Folding@Home/SETI@Home apps at once to get better use out of my dual CPUs? What if I wanted to have 2 AIM screennames logged in at once?

There's absolutely no reason for the artificial restriction Apple placed, unless:
1) The OS can't handle it
2) The users can't handle it

Apple thinks its users are morons. Wonder why.

[Drake Tungsten]

You are telling me that the first time you saw the Green X (without text) you could identify that it was Excel? Yeah, right

Well, if you're such a moron that you can't remember what the green X means (and you really should remember, since you had to find the app and drag into onto the Dock to make the shortcut in the first place), then you have to go through all the trouble of moving your cursor over the scary green X and reading the application name that pops up. Of course, if you can't remember what the icon meant in the first place, you probably can't read either, so you might as well throw your computer out the window and watch cartoons instead.

Oh, almost forget the...

[MRT144]

Originally posted by Agathon


I wouldn't be too quick to say that. On OS X I can run every single app I have at the same time and the system will take it easily (good memory management apparently). I actually tried to open as many as I could and got bored halfway thru the utilties folder.

what i mean is that youre still getting used to running every program you want at the same time and being able to multitask. maybe this is why you dont understand why you want to run the same program twice.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

1) There are people with memory problems (I'm working in a retirement home this summer, trust me on this one)

Lame answer. If they are so hopeless at remembering things, they aren't going to be much good at remembering what "Outlook Express" stands for.

Anyway, I'd give old folks a mac any day. Universal Access and Speakable items make it pretty easy for them.

2) It's fundamentally a dumber idea to just show an icon, and when you click on it, list the windows open for it. It just makes more sense, from an efficiency and functionality perspective, to list all the windows with an application icon and then the title next to it (ie, the W icon for Word, then "Steve Jobs is my Hero" as the title).

But this is what Mac OS X does as well. All my minimized windows have the application icon superimposed over them. I can see where they went when I minimized them, so I know where they are. If I have a large stack of Windows open or minimized I can get at them thru the application icon. At a certain number of open windows it becomes more efficient to use the other method.

You can piss and moan all you want Asher but in practice it works very well.

(and I'm not a great Jobs admirer BTW)

3) Apple doesn't have the equivalent "tray" functionality which is very useful. Why doesn't Apple have it?

I was hoping you might ask this. I take it you are referring to the collection of icons to the left of the clock on the Windows taskbar.

The simple reason is that it is a complete waste of space. If I can look at the dock to see which apps are open I don't need anything else. There are a few icons like internet connect which can be placed in the top right hand corner if needed, but that's about it. In Windows all this seems to be used for is to place software companies logos in.

I'm wondering if you're really this dense?

I used to wonder about you, but now I'm sure.

I'm not saying you can't see what's open and what's not, I'm saying it's stupid to clump them together in a pseudo-random fashion because they're fundamentally different things. It's not as easy to see at a glance what's running and what's not, compared to Windows.

A closed application and an open application are fundamentally different things. Give me a break - they are states of the same thing. It uses less space and there is no ambiguity. In practice it doesn't even bear thinking about.

Your argument is in essence that people can't tell them apart. As Drake said, only an idiot would have this problem.

Apple basically took very basic functionality out of the Windows Taskbar, made QuickLaunch on by default, and removed all of the extra usefulness from it. While at the same time Apple users ***** about all the stuff MS "steals" from Apple.

The Dock comes from NextStep which precedes Windows 95 by some years. I can show you a picture if you like.

nuff said

That's funny, my friends' Chimera (Camino now) crashes constantly. So does his Safari.

Poor him. Mine doesn't.

Again, he's a power user. He's in computer science.

If this means he's been messing around with it then it's his fault, right?

You Philosophy types probably don't do anything that could remotely break a computer, since all you need to do is load Word and write what's on your mind.

Yes, we are the end users, the people computers are built for. You can design programs and OSes all you like, but you guys don't produce anything worthwhile out of them (unless you are programming games or computer art).

What if I wanted to do two Folding@Home/SETI@Home apps at once to get better use out of my dual CPUs? What if I wanted to have 2 AIM screennames logged in at once?

I don't think that you would get better use by having two running than one on the mac. And I think you can have multiple AIM logins using Proteus.

There's absolutely no reason for the artificial restriction Apple placed, unless:
1) The OS can't handle it
2) The users can't handle it

No - because it's unnecessary for all but the most arcane uses.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Lame answer. If they are so hopeless at remembering things, they aren't going to be much good at remembering what "Outlook Express" stands for.

At work, we have the application and shortcut renamed "E-MAIL".

Anyway, I'd give old folks a mac any day. Universal Access and Speakable items make it pretty easy for them.

Gee, I wish Windows had that. Oh wait, it does. It even has easily-turned on high-contrast theme, screen magnifier, large fonts, etc.

I was hoping you might ask this. I take it you are referring to the collection of icons to the left of the clock on the Windows taskbar.

The simple reason is that it is a complete waste of space. If I can look at the dock to see which apps are open I don't need anything else. There are a few icons like internet connect which can be placed in the top right hand corner if needed, but that's about it. In Windows all this seems to be used for is to place software companies logos in.

Again, you don't understand the usefulness of it.
For example, my tray has 2 things always visible in it: SeMagic (LiveJournal client, the icon flashes when a friend posts an update, when I click it it opens to the post), and a Weather icon which shows the current weather states, and when I click it it gives me detailed information. Hidden on the tray (so I click the little arrow to make them visible), are programs always running such as Nomad Zen Detector, MS IntelliPoint, Samurize, eMule (file transfer/p2p), and Folding@Home. These are applications I very rarely need to play with, but I sometimes do. So they're running on the computer, but just minimzed to the tray and I have it configured to hide them unless I expose them.

That's hardly a "waste of space".

A closed application and an open application are fundamentally different things. Give me a break - they are states of the same thing. It uses less space and there is no ambiguity. In practice it doesn't even bear thinking about.

It doesn't use any less space, it's just in a random order rather than in order of what's running and what's not. And of course they're different states of the same thing, the problem is they're fundamentally different states. Why are you mixing two states indescriminately?

Your argument is in essence that people can't tell them apart. As Drake said, only an idiot would have this problem.

I've clarified this numerous times now, it's not that people can't tell them apart it's that it's harder to tell immediately what's running and what's not.

If this means he's been messing around with it then it's his fault, right?

He's not messing around with it -- he's just got tons of windows going at once and moves quite rapidly through everything.

but you guys don't produce anything worthwhile out of them (unless you are programming games or computer art).

A philosophy major telling me we don't produce anything worthwhile, that's rich.
Fine then, I don't want you using your computer except for games or computer art.

I don't think that you would get better use by having two running than one on the mac. And I think you can have multiple AIM logins using Proteus.

Proteus, the pathetic Trillian clone for Mac.

No - because it's unnecessary for all but the most arcane uses.

You know that's not a good argument -- if it's unnecessary, people wouldn't use it. Why artifically block it off if your OS can handle it, unless it can't?

[Drake Tungsten]

I've clarified this numerous times now, it's not that people can't tell them apart it's that it's harder to tell immediately what's running and what's not.

No it isn't; repeating this falsehood ad nauseum doesn't make it any more true. You can instantly tell what applications are running and which aren't by looking at the Dock. Just because it is different from Windows doesn't make it worse.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Again, you don't understand the usefulness of it.
For example, my tray has 2 things always visible in it: SeMagic (LiveJournal client, the icon flashes when a friend posts an update, when I click it it opens to the post), and a Weather icon which shows the current weather states, and when I click it it gives me detailed information. Hidden on the tray (so I click the little arrow to make them visible), are programs always running such as Nomad Zen Detector, MS IntelliPoint, Samurize, eMule (file transfer/p2p), and Folding@Home. These are applications I very rarely need to play with, but I sometimes do. So they're running on the computer, but just minimzed to the tray and I have it configured to hide them unless I expose them.

That's hardly a "waste of space".

Yes it is. A dock ready application can display that sort of information in the dock icon. For example, the Mail icon tells me how many unread mail messages I have and Aquisition tells me when a download is completed. Photoshop's icon has a progress bar to tell you how far along it is. You can also download docklings that tell you the weather, etc.

Why bother having a separate icon when one will do everything? It's a waste of space. Or don't you understand the concept of "a waste of space"?

It doesn't use any less space, it's just in a random order rather than in order of what's running and what's not. And of course they're different states of the same thing, the problem is they're fundamentally different states. Why are you mixing two states indescriminately?

You don't need them - one icon can happily integrate all these functions.

You sound like a guy who wants two light switches. One for on and one for off.

I've clarified this numerous times now, it's not that people can't tell them apart it's that it's harder to tell immediately what's running and what's not.

And both Drake and I have clarified to you that one would have to be a visually impaired idiot to be confused in this situation. You still don't get it after all this time and still say it's confusing. It isn't at all, unless you are an idiot.

He's not messing around with it -- he's just got tons of windows going at once and moves quite rapidly through everything.

So do I and I don't have that problem.

A philosophy major telling me we don't produce anything worthwhile, that's rich.

A computer is a tool, not an end in itself.

Proteus, the pathetic Trillian clone for Mac.

I don't use it but it works just fine.

You know that's not a good argument -- if it's unnecessary, people wouldn't use it. Why artifically block it off if your OS can handle it, unless it can't?

Because there is no need for it. The uses you mentioned just aren't needed. Presumably, Windows doesn't allow functionality for useless things.

Why don't you just admit that you don't know how to use the OS X interface properly? You've accused it of not having functions that it patently has. In fact you can navigate through the dock just like the Windows taskbar if you want, but that option is for users with disabilties which pretty much tells you all you need to know about the Windows interface.