New Sheepsta publicly announces that the war of LIBERATION has begun.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Sheep
occ: I don;t supprt the war on Iraq I would appreciate it if you did not make any equations between the rping here and the plight of the Iraqi civilan.

O.O.C. I support the war on Iraq, and if you want to debate about it with me, bring it on. I'll reference it if I want to, because quite frankly, what you're doing is exactly what Iraq has done. (Claims of the enemy wanting natural resources, coming as invaders, making all these unsubstantiated propaganda claims, etc, etc, etc) Of course, I consider my nations somewhat better than the US (Afterall, am I invading? No. I waited for you to attack.), but I certainly see parallels between toppling your regime and toppling Saddam's, not the least being that you're a brutal military dictatorship (Who had WMD but claims to have disposed of them. Wow, more parallels. This is getting creepy.)

And also....."equation"? Please tell me, is English your second language, or are some public high schools here really that bad?

[Sheep]

Okay then name me explain to me Four things. You can't

1/ Why did the weapon's inspectors only get 3 months from 1441 til the invasion
2/ Why hasn't anyone found credible evidence of the WOMD or the fact why hasn't our governments came out with the evidence if THEY do have it.
3/ Why back in September was American TV networks and the government talking about a possible invasion of Iraq, and was dismayed at the inactivity of the United Nations.
4/Why has France, Germany, Russia or China all who have obviously seen this great piece of evidence George Bush is hiding from the public continually not back the resolutions the Americans would of needed to mount a legitmate invasion of Iraq.

Truth is this war is not about WOMD or Saddam it is about securing American assets in the Persian Gulf region, securing oil for the Western markets that otherwise we run but Saddam, and to ensure that the American Empire continues to grow.

Who are we to press our notions of liberty, justice or democracy on another people. You can;t make people be free they need to choose it. Yes I don't support Saddam who could but I feel a much better way would be to release the crippling embargoes placed upon the Iraqi people and with their economic power growing it is a well known fact that they would demand the policital freedoms to go with it.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Sheep
Okay then name me explain to me Four things. You can't

1/ Why did the weapon's inspectors only get 3 months from 1441 til the invasion

Check your history fool. How many years were the Weapons Inspectors in after the end of the first Gulf War before being expelled from Iraq by Saddam? 8 years

Originally posted by Sheep
2/ Why hasn't anyone found credible evidence of the WOMD or the fact why hasn't our governments came out with the evidence if THEY do have it.

What, you think the evidence is right out in the open? This is a desert country. It is not hard to hide something in an endless desert.

Though, you really should read this.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=17004&sid=ecd830bb3679b21daa3a89f36f4df350

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/5573683.htm

Originally posted by Sheep
3/ Why back in September was American TV networks and the government talking about a possible invasion of Iraq, and was dismayed at the inactivity of the United Nations.

Could it be because the United Nations were inactive and not solving the problem?

Originally posted by Sheep
4/Why has France, Germany, Russia or China all who have obviously seen this great piece of evidence George Bush is hiding from the public continually not back the resolutions the Americans would of needed to mount a legitmate invasion of Iraq.

You do know of all the economic contracts that France, Germany, Russia and China had with Iraq, right? You know, the ones they haven't been paid for yet.

Originally posted by Sheep
Truth is this war is not about WOMD or Saddam it is about securing American assets in the Persian Gulf region, securing oil for the Western markets that otherwise we run but Saddam, and to ensure that the American Empire continues to grow.

The USA gets the majority of oil from Canda, with the Saudi's, itself, and Australia the next highest producers for its oil requirements. They don't need Saddam's oil at all.
Though one must point out....most of that oil was owned by by Americians before Saddam nationalized the industry (ie. Took it from them).

Originally posted by Sheep
Who are we to press our notions of liberty, justice or democracy on another people. You can;t make people be free they need to choose it. Yes I don't support Saddam who could but I feel a much better way would be to release the crippling embargoes placed upon the Iraqi people and with their economic power growing it is a well known fact that they would demand the policital freedoms to go with it.

A well known fact? Bull****. You *do* know that last time they demanded political freedoms that they were put down by Saddam's military, don't you?

[Sheep]

ahhh, someone who has been mystified by the arch-imperialists propoganda. Sorry dude but you use exactly the same arguments as they do.

In 8 years don;t you think the inspectors would of found something. The US has heaps of sattelites buzzing over Irawq they could pick up massed attempts of hiding weapons, oh and you still haven;t expained that if the US has this killer evidence why they fail to show it to the general public.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Sheep
ahhh, someone who has been mystified by the arch-imperialists propoganda. Sorry dude but you use exactly the same arguments as they do.

Don't you just love it how you bring out one logical fallacy after another? First a Personal Attack against other people, then a Guilt by Association fallacy. I don't see you invalidating myn arguements here.

Originally posted by Sheep
In 8 years don;t you think the inspectors would of found something.

They probably would've. If they were allowed to do their jobs properly. Which they weren't. Remember all the times they were refused entry to sites, including all those massive presidential palace compounds (The smallest of which was larger than Buckingham Palace as I recall)?

Originally posted by Sheep
The US has heaps of sattelites buzzing over Irawq they could pick up massed attempts of hiding weapons,

You overestimate the ability of sattelites to pick small objects from orbit when they don't know where to look. Chemical Weapons are typically stored in the same manner as Oil, and biological agents could literally be carried in a pocket.

Originally posted by Sheep
oh and you still haven;t expained that if the US has this killer evidence why they fail to show it to the general public.

Do I have to when troops, plus an embedded reporter, are starting to test positive for having been exposed to the weapons?
Besides, there *is* the matter of national security. Somehow I don't think operatives are going to like their covers being blown and being killed because their work was paraded around publically.

Quite frankly though....are you saying that Saddam shouldn't be toppled? Even if you could prove that people had ulterior motives, Saddam being toppled is still something that is desirable.

Ever hear about the unintended consequences arguement? For example, did the US invade France in 1944 to liberate France? Let's say they did not, and that they had ulterior motives (as some people claim). The end result however was a liberated France. Apply this to Iraq. Let's say we are going in just for the oil (despite the fact it would take a large amount of money to make it profitable, that Iraq doesn't supply that much oil, that the US already has all it needs from Canada, etc.) The end result is still a liberated Iraq, where Saddam no longer holds power. In fact, this reminds me of of Adam Smith pointing out the wholy unintended postive effects of a free market run on self-intrest, which shouldn't be too suprising seeing that politics and economics were originally considered one field of study.


A question Sheep. What kind of student are you anyway? I'm a 2nd Year student of International Business, with a Japanese Language specialization. My specialty areas are Government and Ethics. Now, what founding in these topics do you have that makes you think you have the right to speak with such authority when you're not even providing evidence, simply outlandish claims that are easily rebutted? The fact that the ANSWER group (A front for the World Workers Party, surprise surprise.) and a bunch of other people at those rallies in King George Square agree with you?

[GeneralTacticus]

Just for the record - while the inspectors were in Iraq pre-1998, they did find quite a lot of stuff, and got rid of what they did find.

[Sheep]

Listen mate I have studied this subject in great detail. While I do respect that others including yourself have diffrent opinions, I do have my own. The thing you have to remember is that in International Relations you need to be willing to read between the lines to discover the truth. Believeing eveything you see and read you are doomed to fall into the trap of propoganda. It happened in Nazi Germany, it is now happening in the United States, Britian and Australia. These governemts and their media lackeys will show you what they want you to see.

If it wasn;t the case wouldn;t you think that there would be more coverage on the civilan casualties, or collateral damge as you call them. Would you like to be referred to as collateral damage.

Remember the price the Iraqi people havce to pay to have freedom imposed onto them.

[Archaic]

Thanks for that GT. A very good point.

Originally posted by Sheep
Listen mate I have studied this subject in great detail.

Translation - "I read a few pamphlets the communist A.N.S.W.E.R group gave me. Oh no, they can't have an ultertior motive! They're communists!"

Originally posted by Sheep
While I do respect that others including yourself have diffrent opinions, I do have my own.

And so far they seem to be rather informed opinions, considering that you didn't know a basic fact like WMD having been found during those 8 years.

Originally posted by Sheep
The thing you have to remember is that in International Relations you need to be willing to read between the lines to discover the truth. Believeing eveything you see and read you are doomed to fall into the trap of propoganda.

Which is why I've recently been watching all of FOX, CNN, NBC, Sky, BBC, ITN, Al-Jazeera, and the various world news programs on the SBS, not to mention the free to air networks, to get my news from as many perspectives as possible. (I also read iraqwar.ru, as well as the sites of many newspapers and other news networks from around the words) It seems however that you believe that anyone who's actually informed would support you. Newsflash. Most of the people at those rallies are easily swayed university students, to whom the socialist promises usually sound good simply because they don't have much money, and envy those who do. (One should note here that I am a poor university student, on HECS, who couldn't afford it in my present state without HECS, who believes most of the Nelson report is right. How's that for a display of objectivity?)

Originally posted by Sheep
It happened in Nazi Germany, it is now happening in the United States, Britian and Australia. These governemts and their media lackeys will show you what they want you to see.

Yes, that's right. There's a massive global conspiricy to prevent people from learning (DUH DUH DUH!) "the truth!". Which is why I can get all those news coverages from all the different perspectives that I listed earlier.

Originally posted by Sheep
If it wasn;t the case wouldn;t you think that there would be more coverage on the civilan casualties, or collateral damge as you call them. Would you like to be referred to as collateral damage.

I'd refer to them as unfortunate casualties of war. Kindly don't place words in my mouth. And no, I don't think there'd be more coverage of them. What's the point? You seem to forget that people die in wars.
You also seem to be of the opinion that "oh, we killed some civilians by accident. That must mean we should stop this war and not topple the dictator who oppresses them".

You do realise BTW that the media has given quite a bit of coverage to how they're trying to minimise civilian deaths? Inert bombs (ie. Slabs of concrete shaped like bombs, which can be laser guided towards targets) do a mass of damage against targets, but don't cause all that much other damage beside that.

And as to if I'd like to be referred to as collateral damage.....that's a Red Herring and an Appeal to Emotion wrapped up in one neat package. Utterly irrelevant.

Originally posted by Sheep
Remember the price the Iraqi people havce to pay to have freedom imposed onto them.

Considering that the Republican Guard had to put down an uprising of citizens in Bagdad today, killing 35 civilians and injuring many others, I'd hardly say it's imposing it on them. Civilian deaths are regretable, but it's a far smaller price to pay than the price you'd have them pay to achieve a goal through peaceful (and unrealistic) means.

[ColdWizard]

Originally posted by Archaic
Maybe so, but I figured that he had no interest in Nationstates anymore anyway, which under the circumstances was certainly a reasonable assumption.

yeah, why bother asking when you can just assume?

[Archaic]

Why bother asking when he has shown no interest in Nationstates for over a month, leading to his nation being deleted.

[Archaic]

With business at an all time high thanks to the New Sheepstan war, South Sheepsta is proud to announce that the latest UN statistics show it as haing the 17th largest Insurance Industry in Apolyton, and just shy of being within the top 8000 nations in the world.

[GeneralTacticus]

Congratulations to South Sheepsta. Is there any furhter news on the war? Thankfully, our troops have reported matters as being mainly quiet; no-one has attacked them, and we've seen no attacks on civilians except for a few minor incidents, which may not be connected to the war at all.

[Archaic]

The front appears to be quiet at the moment, though advance units have reported significant troop movements by New Sheepstan forces all around the cordon, and it is assumed that they intend to make a big push soon by weight of numbers. Our troops however are dug in and heavily fortified, and we expect no opposition troops to be able to cross the no mans land between the two sides without getting killed unless they happen to be waving white flags....in which case they hopefully got the last pamphlet which tells them to strip once they get to a certain range. While no one was killed by earlier incidents, we've already had a few suicide bombers come under flag of truce.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Sheep
Listen mate I have studied this subject in great detail. While I do respect that others including yourself have diffrent opinions, I do have my own. The thing you have to remember is that in International Relations you need to be willing to read between the lines to discover the truth. Believeing eveything you see and read you are doomed to fall into the trap of propoganda. It happened in Nazi Germany, it is now happening in the United States, Britian and Australia. These governemts and their media lackeys will show you what they want you to see.

If it wasn;t the case wouldn;t you think that there would be more coverage on the civilan casualties, or collateral damge as you call them. Would you like to be referred to as collateral damage.

Remember the price the Iraqi people havce to pay to have freedom imposed onto them.

Sheep you of all people should know better. Why do people keep comparing Nazi Germany with USA? There are no paralles. I know what happened in Germany that led to the rise of Hittler and none of that is happening hear, and the last time I checked President Bush is not racist.

Also if the USA wanted the oil in the Middle East so much we would have just taken over the country in 1991. In fact we would have taken over all of the middle east by now, considering most of the those nations millitary forces are no match for the US.

Everyday US troops advance more and more into Iraq and into the capital they find evidence that Saddam was training his troops for chemical warfare and giving them Chem suits and antiduotes for chemical weapons. Also they may have found a chemical weapons site in Iraq and the first test on sence show that it is and they are going to conduct more test just to make sure before making it offical. The fact is when you have complete and total access to every place in Iraq, like the USA does it will make finding these weapons so much easier.

[Jack_www]

Also Sheep if you must know the estimated civilians killed by the war on both sides if around 909 to 1087 at the time I posted this, if you want to check this the site is http://www.iraqbodycount.net. They are a group of researches who looking at news reports to see if they can get a number on how many civilians have died, and I think most of them are anti war, but still a good place to look if you want to see how many civilians died.

And you know how I found out about this site sheep? By listening to a local radio station, that according to you are not reporting civilian deaths.