Ggs project overview

[ElmoTheElk]

Great to see you around here, cavebear! Welcome to our project. Although you are not a programmer, you can always contobute to the project. Just join the discussion.

It should be great if you can write a letter to Jared Diamond about the legal issues and his vision on using the name. Thanks already.

[cavebear]

The Joker - Thanks for the welcome. I'll start on a letter tomorrow, and post it for comment as soon as possible.

As far as my participation, I have a long-standing interest in homo sapiens evolution, and GGS addressed some questions that I have always wanted some answers for. I would probably be most useful in helping to keep the game parameters focussed on the themes of the book.

For example, perhaps some adbvantage should be given to East-West movement (and limiting North-South movement) in keeping with Diamonds ideas concerning the consequences of major axis of the various land-masses.

I'll make sure to read all the other threads before I suggest anything further, though.

[ElmoTheElk]

However, the game is not based on the book. We are not trying to implent the aspects of the book in a civ-type game. The reason we choose thuis title is that it reflects to our thoughts of a good civ-game.

This does not mean that you can't be of any help of course! You should become of great value in discussions like the disease model inplentation and using plants/animals/etc. in our game. We really need to know what it is in the real world to make the game more realistic (which is pretty important to us).

Oh, and: thanks for writing the letter!

[The Joker]

Yes, we are not just making this a game version of Mr. Diamond's book.

We are using the title since it demonstrates what we are trying to accomplish with the game.

And we are certaintly gonna use a lot of concepts that appear in the book, whether they be created by Mr. Diamond himself, or just mentioned by him, since the book is one of the most important books on the history of manking ever created.

But the game will remain a game. And we are not necessarily going to use a concept, just because it appears in the book, if that concept will hurt the gameplay. We are creating a game, which will be both a strategy game and a historical simulation. Both aspects will have to be implemented. For instance, if we implement all aspects from the book, we might end up with a game where the world itself determines who is going to succeed, and who is going to fail, due to the geographic determinism. And that wont do in a game. Therefore we are thinking about how to implement both aspects. And a possible result of this speculation can be found in the animals thread. We are using animals in the game, but we are going to make sure that a player can succeed, even if he hasn't got any animals on his continent. It will just become much more dificult. And that can be used as a form of advanced dificulty level. On a low level you will have loads of animals, on the hardest you will have none.

This is a brilliant examble of how to both implement some of the book's concepts, and still keep the game playable and fun. And this is how it should remain.

But this wont change anything in what you can help us with. If you have a lot of knowledge about the history of man, you can certaintly be of much help when handling the realism of the game.

And about the east/west versus north/south, I think giving movement limitations to north/south movement would be a fake and bad way to give east/west continents an advantage. In stead I think the advantage would come by itself, if we implement animals in the game. Due to the climatic differences it will be easier for animals and technology to spread east/west than north/south. Therefore I don't think we will even have to worry much about that. It should just come pretty much by itself.

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"It ain't broke, so BREAK it."
- Raingoon

GGS Website

[amjayee]

An idea just occurred to my of how to have the east-west movement thing. Let's not restrict unit movement, but let the axis affect the movement of ideas - i.e. trade routes. How many important north-south trade routes have existed? Not many. Perhaps we should make it more profitable to trade laterally on the planet, due to similar climate etc.?

[The Joker]

Well, I think we should avoid any fake restrictions and effects.

Simply make the movement of ideas restricted by different terrain types. This will make the restrictions come all by themselves. There is no reason why a trade route with cars from Florida to New York should be different from one from Florida to LA.

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"It ain't broke, so BREAK it."
- Raingoon

GGS Website

[ElmoTheElk]

You're right. This should be a natrual effect of other things, not a specially programmed feature.

[The Joker]

Hmm...

Been some time since we've heard from Cavebear. I hope we didn't scare him away with this.

If you are out there Cavebear I sure hope you will not leave us, or in case you did come back.

Think about it. The book does not contain everything the game will be like. the whole modern history part of the book is seriously incomplete. And if we were to only use aspects from the book then how would our government or economy model be like? Not very advanced, right? It is a fact that other books are better to use in some aspects, and that GGS is better to use in others. So we will take the best from all, and still keep the game a game, and make it fun and playable. Something it might not have been if we were "just" basing it on GGS the book.

So please, let us know from you. If you are not happy then maybe we can talk about it?

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"Damn those nazicommunists."
- McBain

GGS Website

[Guildmaster]

TO be totally honest, I have never read the book, and I never heard of it either. Sounds interesting though

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He's spreading funk throughout the nations
And for you he will play
Electronic Super-Soul vibrations
He's come to save the day
- Lenny Kravitz

[ElmoTheElk]

I last found out that GGS is translated into Dutch! That makes it much easier to read... I guess I go to the library this week to see if it's there!

Maybe it's also translated into Danish, Finish, etc.

[VetLegion]

Its not translated to Croatian
But I think it is right to let the author know we use the name, and I think he/she would let us. Not that I have a problem if he/she does not

[ElmoTheElk]

You are right about that. It is probably an copyrighted name.
About the language issue: Joker posted this sentence in the Terrain and map tread:

-- Hej Martin! Det er godt at høre at du er interesseret i projektet.

Translated to Dutch I think (but I cannot speak the language) it says:

-- He Martin! Het doet me goed om te horen dat je geinteresseerd bent in ons project.

Not that different!

[The Joker]

Guildmaster:

It is really interesting, actually. I like it not only because it offers some fascinating theories, but also because it is about history, which I like, but in a more scientific faction, trying to understand why things happen, and not just listing the facts.


Elmo:

I have it and I have read it in english, so...

And it's really true, that Dutch and Danish is really similar, at least when written. But when you Dutch talk it just stops making sence in any way! But I guess Danish is similar.

------------------
"Damn those nazicommunists."
- McBain

GGS Website

[cavebear]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 12-12-2000 01:40 PM Hmm... Been some time since we've heard from Cavebear. I hope we didn't scare him away with this. If you are out there Cavebear I sure hope you will not leave us, or in case you did come back. Think about it. The book does not contain everything the game will be like. the whole modern history part of the book is seriously incomplete. And if we were to only use aspects from the book then how would our government or economy model be like? Not very advanced, right? It is a fact that other books are better to use in some aspects, and that GGS is better to use in others. So we will take the best from all, and still keep the game a game, and make it fun and playable. Something it might not have been if we were "just" basing it on GGS the book. So please, let us know from you. If you are not happy then maybe we can talk about it?

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. The truth is that I have been reading the posts, but have become concerned about the design emphasis. It seems it is harder to get away from the Civ-model of warfare gaming than I had hoped.

I fully understand that you are not attempting a GGS simulation and that it is essential to keep a gaming aspect in your design. I understand that there has to be competition at the heart of it.

Still, I am concerned that the most basic aspects of the GGS idea are not being incorporated, and I just can't manage to compose a letter to Mr. Diamond in good faith. I have little doubt that you will all come up with a good game, but it doesn't feel like GGS and that was the whole attraction for me.

No hard feelings, really. I just feel I should back away from this. I suspect I would just keeping raising GGS issues that run counter to the direction of the game you are developing.

[amjayee]

I have the English version of GGS, and now I'm halfway through it. It is really interesting, and gives a lot of ideas, not even speaking of getting a better idea of world history!

cavebear: What, the most basic aspects of GGS are not there? Now that I have been reading the book, I have thought that we are implementing just the basic aspects! Animal and and plant domestication will be somewhat important, diseases also, geography, guns and steel also... don't be taken back by our talking! The game will be quite much like GGS. And anyway, we would need someone to write to Mr Diamond.