The Best: Civ3 or CTP2?

[rooboy]

(It's like watching the Aussies take the Poms apart, or Man Utd vs. Hereford, or the Lakers vs. the Clippers)

And re the gardening angle, I think Splangy would be capable of growing a huge orchard.

I think IW summed up this thread quite succintly.

[Sarxis]

Originally posted by Pedrunn


At least make your U$30 dolars worthy.

Do not say that the game modded is half- way playable if you did not play it. We can only criticize what we know.

No game can last longer without being changed. Either by the company (in civ2: TOT and plenties of additions) or by the modders.

First, I have no time to risk on a game that I know has already caused me great disappointment. Yeah, maybe modded Ctp2 is a good game, but at this point, I just don't have the time or desire to mess with the mess.

And, I guess I was trying to compliment the modders by saying the game is half-way playable after mod application. You are right- I don't know this for sure (though I won't be betting any money on it either). And as a side note: I can criticize all things I know, don't know, or make up- it's the journalistic way.

Lastly, I agree that a game's life will be greatly enhanced by injecting mods into it. But Ctp2 is more like a premature baby on life support with it's mods, rather than a grand-parent that we don't want taken away from us.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Dale





I know Sid's not writing it. Hence why I said not to throw it at me. You do seem to believe Civ3 is God's gift to man. You are pinning all your hopes and wishes on a sequal to a fantastic game (Civ2) and won't accept the point that some of us in the world actually enjoy CTP2 and believe it stands on it's own as a good game. Aside from the fact that a LOT of sequals are crap! And my remarks are based on "current trends" as I mentioned in my post. Read it! "Current trends" are universally recognised in debates as supporting evidence.

again, where did i say it was gods gift to man?? im aware it might not be perfect, but i know it will be better than ctp, a game that wont work without being modded is not a game. wesses medmod can be considered its own game, just as cradle, and apoliton, these are not mods, a mod is somthing that you play to change the game A LITTLE, not somthing that is so different that you cant use strategies you found useful in the maingame, so thus there isn't a community (read: "commune") rather a group of people, that come toggether to talk about DIFERENT games, its all rather sad

Dale- your (last) reply is the one that is rather childish, instead of contributing to the actual disscusion you rather attack me personaly, again, pretty funny

dale said-"On point 2: You say that I "follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like"? So Firaxis don't know what their own game is like? You crack me up. "

again with the personal mudslinging, actually i ment the apoliton community, unless we are all woirking for sid ?


First, I have no time to risk on a game that I know has already caused me great disappointment. Yeah, maybe modded Ctp2 is a good game, but at this point, I just don't have the time or desire to mess with the mess.

anikoba said-"And, I guess I was trying to compliment the modders by saying the game is half-way playable after mod application. You are right- I don't know this for sure (though I won't be betting any money on it either). And as a side note: I can criticize all things I know, don't know, or make up- it's the journalistic way.

Lastly, I agree that a game's life will be greatly enhanced by injecting mods into it. But Ctp2 is more like a premature baby on life support with it's mods, rather than a grand-parent that we don't want taken away from us."

thats what ive been trying to say, but people lke dave (not pedrun, hes been the most adult-like person in this thread) rather make comment about me being stupid and such then actually argue, again its funny, sad, but funny

rooboy- what are you talking about? your last post made no sence, was it supposed to??

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by splangy
rooboy- what are you talking about? your last post made no sence, was it supposed to??

For those at home who may be struggling with the subtleties of the above quote by rooboy, I believe it means a huge mismatch, i.e. the Aussies are clearly the superior team over the Poms, Man Utd being the clearly superior team over Hereford. Whether these are soccer or rugby teams, I cannot say - I leave that up to the Aussies to clarify...

The Lakers clearly being the superior team ove the Clippers is an analogy to those of us who are of the United States would be familiar with - i.e. that being the sport of basketball and the Lakers reigning as the NBA World Champions in that sport - though other teams in the world did not have a say in that outcome. Nevertheless, it is generally accepted that the US teams are the clearly superior players on the planet - notwithstanding that times that they have stumbled on the world stage, but this has been with a collection of college players rather than a team of seasoned pros.

But I digress...

Another, and possibly better way to say the above is the quote ''...like shooting fish in a barrel'' There may be other quotes common to other cultures and nationalities that convey the same idea, but I leave that to your cultural recollections.

The question still remains who the quote is directed to as the recipient. I leave that all up to you who are still reading this post to figure out...

I hope this clarifies the questions that may have been raised.

[Pedrunn]

Dale,

That thread really was a too personal attack.

Spangly,

Dale is right about some of your rebutals. We keep saying that modded CTP2 is great but you did not play it so. This really is annoying since all of our arguments a based on that. Again i tell you we cant criticize something we dont know.

CTP2 unmodded sucks (has a great potential but sucks) and almost everyone in this thread agree with this. We do not need you to tell us that.
But CTP2 modded is another story.

[Dale]

splangy:

Okay, so my last comment about your debating skills was a personal attack. For this I apologise.

Your Honour! Can I have that comment striken from the record?

Now, back to debating Civ3 vs CTP2........

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ctp, a game that wont work without being modded is not a game

Technically, your comment is incorrect. CTP2 out of the box does work, and does provide some people a challanging game. Also, CTP2 fullfilled the design docos (as published by Activison in their letter to the CTP community) so CTP2 is a complete game. However, and I'm sure EVERYONE in these forums and other sites as well will agree, CTP2 out of the box is unbalanced, extremely passive AI, and a few annoying bugs. But Civ2 was not without these out of the box either. How many patches/updates were published for Civ2? Might I remind you of the "HEY! That phalanx shot down my super-duper nuclear powered stealth fighter with his spear! " situations. So neither CTP2 or Civ2 were without their share of problems. The difference is that Civ2 had continual support from the publishers/designers for patches and updates, whereas CTP2 had all support dropped by Activision. This is the fundamental problem with CTP2 and WHY Wes, David and myself went forth and created three great MODS to do what the patches and updates WOULD have done.

So in reality, CTP2 IS a complete functioning game as it a) RAN, b) Fullfilled the design docos, and c) provided a Civ experience similar to CTP1 but enhancing on it. Both CTP2 and Civ2 are the same out of the box, with inconsistencies, imbalance and bugs. So by your own arguement, are you saying that Civ2 is not a game because it needed patches/updates/mods to run correctly?

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dale said-"On point 2: You say that I "follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like"? So Firaxis don't know what their own game is like? You crack me up. "

again with the personal mudslinging, actually i ment the apoliton community, unless we are all woirking for sid ?

What I said was not personal mudslinging. Anyways, my original point 2 that I said had the VERY clear distinction that it was the FIRAXIS Civ3 mailing list, not the APOLYTON Civ3 mailing list. I just got a very big laugh and said it cracked me up.

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wesses medmod can be considered its own game, just as cradle, and apoliton, these are not mods, a mod is somthing that you play to change the game A LITTLE, not somthing that is so different that you cant use strategies you found useful in the maingame

Just a simple clarification on Apolyton Pack MOD. It does not change the game in adding or subtracting things. All the MOD does is FIX the imbalances in the original game. Running AP you will still have the same game as the original just it will be balanced, the stupid AI decisions gone, and the fixable bugs fixed.

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so thus there isn't a community (read: "commune") rather a group of people, that come toggether to talk about DIFERENT games, its all rather sad

Mudslinging?

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Lastly, I agree that a game's life will be greatly enhanced by injecting mods into it. But Ctp2 is more like a premature baby on life support with it's mods, rather than a grand-parent that we don't want taken away from us."

This is all up to personal opinion. A lot of people are actually enjoying the experience in CTP2 + MODS. I for one have moved on from CTP2. However, I still come to the forums here for news on Civ3 and to support the CTP2 community as I can.

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rather make comment about me being stupid

I've never said "stupid". I said............

I'm argueing vehemently with a 13 year old still at school who wouldn't have done full-scale debating yet. That would explain all the holes in the rebutals.

This is a comment on how you wouldn't have had full-scale debating in English yet. But I digress dangerously near that line again. It would be best for us to dump this argueing line.....

[Dale]

Originally posted by rooboy
(It's like watching the Aussies take the Poms apart, or Man Utd vs. Hereford, or the Lakers vs. the Clippers)

And re the gardening angle, I think Splangy would be capable of growing a huge orchard.

I think IW summed up this thread quite succintly.

Or in fine Simpsons form another similar quote...........

Mr Burns - "As simple as taking candy from a baby."

[Pedrunn]

Bad Terrain Graphics

Bad News
Civ3 is on Beta now.
Arent you guys considering that they still havent improved the terrain.
Since they did not make it in the last 3 years they probably wont in the next 3 months.

[Pedrunn]

Just forget about the battle view.

Civ3 army is terrible. You can only build army with Elite units. and needs a small wonder. You can only buid 1 army for each 4 cities. And instead of a battle view they will add defesnse/Attack points.

Those ideas are all unballancing features.
1) The only civs that can build armies are military civs that already have experience in combat (Elite Units). That means if a military civ decides to attack a pacific one . The pacific one can be considered dead. Since they will never get Elite units. The armies of the military civ will be much stronger and kill the ones that try to reach that level. And not getting Elites they will never have armies. So they will never win a war (Armies are way too powerful).

2) Big civs will be able to build more armies. So they will be much militaristicly stronger. What will keep mantainig this civs bigger and bigger.
Without mentionig the ICS characteristics wich should be avoided.

Conclusion
The army is too hard to get and the ones who get those will be much stronger. In a effect that really look like the CTP1 Space Layer. The first one to get to it wins.

PS: Dale, If they only used you combat model. Wich i think it is the best (i had already suggest that model to The List when i was part of the civ3 communty).

[Pedrunn]

Only 7 civs

I just checked a civ3 thread that made a really good observation.

The start screen does not support more than 7 opponents. Not even edited.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Bad News
Civ3 is on Beta now.
Arent you guys considering that they still havent improved the terrain.
Since they did not make it in the last 3 years they probably wont in the next 3 months.

Whats wrong with the terrain? did you look at the most recent screenshots?

dale said-

It would be best for us to dump this argueing line.....

then you said

Mr Burns - "As simple as taking candy from a baby."

im not whining but aren't you contradicting yourself??

"Dale is right about some of your rebutals. We keep saying that modded CTP2 is great but you did not play it so. This really is annoying since all of our arguments a based on that. Again i tell you we cant criticize something we dont know. "

I HAVE PLAYED MODDED im basing my arguments off of that fact, witch is why i dont seem to have a good rebuttle, im having problems arguing about a group of games, if you would like to state a group of things that they all have in commen id argue against that, or if you use 1 mod ill argue against that, but i really cant argue vs a group of games, some i have, some i dont ( i have cradle and apoliton) becouse they are all different. cradle has new units, apoliton dosen't, cradle has wonder units, apoliton dosen't, (does apoliton only fix bugs?) etc.

"CTP2 unmodded sucks (has a great potential but sucks) and almost everyone in this thread agree with this. We do not need you to tell us that.
But CTP2 modded is another story. "

like i said, what story would that be?

ps- dale, i kindly ask you refrain from calling me a 13 year old (witch im definetly not). you try and come up with a argument vs civ1/2/3 vs ctp, its not easy.

[Pedrunn]

Modding

Civ3 will be hard to mod.

CIVS
The start screen does not support more civs. So that you cant make new civs just edit the new ones.
Even edited we will have to use the Leader face of the original.

UNITS
The Graphics are too dificult to make.
They will have only attack, defense and movement characteristics. So what is the point of adding a new unit that probably will have the cahracteristics of an original one.
Modders wont be able to use their imagination. This considering that you can add units.

TECHS
The Science screens are divided by ages. So how will you be able to go futher to the future if you dont have space to add those. Not to mention in that screen the Tecs seemed to have a fixed spot.

[splangy]

Re: Just forget about the battle view.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Pedrunn
Civ3 army is terrible. You can only build army with Elite units. and needs a small wonder. You can only buid 1 army for each 4 cities. And instead of a battle view they will add defesnse/Attack points.

and have 3 size 12 armies in ancient in ctp was relistic? this way will limit early wars, and make armies special.

Those ideas are all unballancing features.
1) The only civs that can build armies are military civs that already have experience in combat (Elite Units). That means if a military civ decides to attack a pacific one . The pacific one can be considered dead. Since they will never get Elite units. The armies of the military civ will be much stronger and kill the ones that try to reach that level. And not getting Elites they will never have armies. So they will never win a war (Armies are way too powerful).

what do you have against pacific civs j/k
well, considering its not easy to get real experienced troops that wont neccessarily happen, plus the same thing already happens in ctp2 (modded)

2) Big civs will be able to build more armies. So they will be much militaristicly stronger. What will keep mantainig this civs bigger and bigger.
Without mentionig the ICS characteristics wich should be avoided.

well, pacifist civs will have a better country (culture, science, ect) hopefully the 2 tank armies can stop 5 cavalry armies. but hopefully new features (read: resources) can slow expansionasts dow so they dont get that large, but hasn't the large civ always had power? (US, USSR, NAZI Germany, Rome, The Khanite)

Conclusion
The army is too hard to get and the ones who get those will be much stronger. In a effect that really look like the CTP1 Space Layer. The first one to get to it wins.

armies can also be
built after nationalism is discovered.

PS: Dale, If they only used you combat model. Wich i think it is the best (i had already suggest that model to The List when i was part of the civ3 communty).

what was his like??

[splangy]

Re: Modding

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Civ3 will be hard to mod.

CIVS
The start screen does not support more civs. So that you cant make new civs just edit the new ones.
Even edited we will have to use the Leader face of the original.

firaxis said it dosent support more civ on some screens, lets not jump to conclusions, plus i think leader graphics are editable, just wont be as good.

UNITS
The Graphics are too dificult to make.
They will have only attack, defense and movement characteristics. So what is the point of adding a new unit that probably will have the cahracteristics of an original one.
Modders wont be able to use their imagination. This considering that you can add units.

nothing has been heard on this one

TECHS
The Science screens are divided by ages. So how will you be able to go futher to the future if you dont have space to add those. Not to mention in that screen the Tecs seemed to have a fixed spot.

im sure thats editable, well just have to wait and see.

[Pedrunn]

Re: Re: Just forget about the battle view.

Originally posted by splangy

what do you have against pacific civs j/k
well, considering its not easy to get real experienced troops that wont neccessarily happen, plus the same thing already happens in ctp2 (modded)

The other way around. You should ask what i have in favor of them. Since the civ3 combat model clearly does only benefit the militaristic ones.
Explain how that happens in CTP2, all civs are able to make armies not only with veterans units.

well, pacifist civs will have a better country (culture, science, ect) hopefully the 2 tank armies can stop 5 cavalry armies. but hopefully new features (read: resources) can slow expansionasts dow so they dont get that large, but hasn't the large civ always had power? (US, USSR, NAZI Germany, Rome, The Khanite)

Now you are just making new features up. Try to concentrate on what is official.

armies can also be
built after nationalism is discovered.

What about before that. Nationalism is an advance of the second half of the game