The Best: Civ3 or CTP2?

[Dale]

I can't believe an arguement can be made that involves a game that isn't even out yet.

Anyways, just some points........

1. Someone mentioned a 500 page list. If Civ2 and the Civ series is so good, then why the need for 500 pages of suggestions/bug-fixes/changes? From what I can see, Civ3 is just Civ2 with a couple of changes/fixes/additions.

2. Mention of having to change strategies when Civ3 comes out. Oh, and how long will it take everyone to figure out the AI and end up kicking it's butt all the time? Then everyone will be complaining about how Civ3's AI is useless.

3. And since not ALL the 500 pages as mentioned in point 1 will not be in Civ3, and that everyone will eventually be kicking Civ3's AI butt, the modders will start coming out with mods to make it as they want it to be. Where will we be at that time? The same place we are with Civ2 and CTP1/2. A Civ3 game that outa the box is easy to beat, and needs modding to provide a challanging game.

Hmmm........... so basically, what's going to happen is 6 months after Civ3 is out everyone is going to be complaining about problems, bugs, changes they want, etc and the modders are going to need to fix Civ3 as well. One really good thing in favour of Civ3 is that Firaxis will most likely post any patches needed to the game, not like Activision. To me, I can see Civ3 coming down to the same level as Civ2 & CTP1/2 is at now. So really, I'm not going to make an opinion about which I prefer, except that "I can play CTP2 now and have modded it (Apolyton Pack) so that it provides me a good game."

Oh, and I'm STILL going to have a massive army of settlers/engineers on the board having to move 500 of them each turn, just to make a road.

[Sarxis]

Oh, I get it MarkG...

I don't need to take this abuse from you- I have plenty of people waiting to abuse me.

Did you know that all Ctp lovers are Egyptian? Why?
Because they are in DA NILE! Hey, maybe I am not original, but at least I am good look...er... scratch that.



And I cut my own cheese, thank you very much!

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Anunikoba
Oh, I get it MarkG...

I don't need to take this abuse from you- I have plenty of people waiting to abuse me.

abuse? where?

[Sarxis]

Not to be taken literally MarkG.

And you know, to answer the start of this thread: No- I actually haven't tried playing Ctp2 modded. I actually probably would try this (and still might do so), but I don't have the time to fish out my Ctp2 disc out of my 'retired games' pile right now.

I find it a shame that a game would need a fan mod just to make it half-way playable. Isn't that what we pay developers to do? Make playable games for us?

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Anunikoba

And you know, to answer the start of this thread: No- I actually haven't tried playing Ctp2 modded. I actually probably would try this (and still might do so), but I don't have the time to fish out my Ctp2 disc out of my 'retired games' pile right now.

I find it a shame that a game would need a fan mod just to make it half-way playable. Isn't that what we pay developers to do? Make playable games for us?

At least make your U$30 dolars worthy.

Do not say that the game modded is half- way playable if you did not play it. We can only criticize what we know.

No game can last longer without being changed. Either by the company (in civ2: TOT and plenties of additions) or by the modders.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Dale
I can't believe an arguement can be made that involves a game that isn't even out yet.

Anyways, just some points........

1. Someone mentioned a 500 page list. If Civ2 and the Civ series is so good, then why the need for 500 pages of suggestions/bug-fixes/changes? From what I can see, Civ3 is just Civ2 with a couple of changes/fixes/additions.

SEQUALS do tend to be like that

2. Mention of having to change strategies when Civ3 comes out. Oh, and how long will it take everyone to figure out the AI and end up kicking it's butt all the time? Then everyone will be complaining about how Civ3's AI is useless.

ya? well if ctps AI can beat you thats pretty sad...

3. And since not ALL the 500 pages as mentioned in point 1 will not be in Civ3, and that everyone will eventually be kicking Civ3's AI butt, the modders will start coming out with mods to make it as they want it to be. Where will we be at that time? The same place we are with Civ2 and CTP1/2. A Civ3 game that outa the box is easy to beat, and needs modding to provide a challanging game.

excuse me but do you own the game? no! well than stop acting like you do!

Hmmm........... so basically, what's going to happen is 6 months after Civ3 is out everyone is going to be complaining about problems, bugs, changes they want, etc and the modders are going to need to fix Civ3 as well. One really good thing in favour of Civ3 is that Firaxis will most likely post any patches needed to the game, not like Activision. To me, I can see Civ3 coming down to the same level as Civ2 & CTP1/2 is at now. So really, I'm not going to make an opinion about which I prefer, except that "I can play CTP2 now and have modded it (Apolyton Pack) so that it provides me a good game."

are you a fortune teller? I find it intresting how you haven't (couldn't have if your saying this) looked at civ3, but already can say it sucks.

Oh, and I'm STILL going to have a massive army of settlers/engineers on the board having to move 500 of them each turn, just to make a road.

i like that, its a prefference, not everyone is like you (thank god)!

[splangy]

Originally posted by Xerxes2
... can't make roses from crap, eh? You must not be a gardener. A little horses**t on the roses does wonders.

good point, very funny

I JUST got CTP2 working on my machine. I bought it when it came out and spent about $1300 US to get it working, with no success. I finally did an upgrade of my video board and voila! it works. And I'm having fun with it now. I did use the mods I've found for which anyone who worked on one of them and reads this, Thanks for all your time and effort.

they did a good job but you cant make roses from dirt (j/k) but seriusly, they really shouldn't have to, ive looked at the script and its REALLY confusing and needs heavy testing, that was the programers job.

I am one of those who are waiting with bated breath for the RELEASE. When it comes I'll be right down standing in line with the rest of you. Having said that, I note that the ONLY game which has stood the real test of time is SMAC/SMAX. I've played them since they came out and still waste entirely too much time playing SMAX.

Ditto

I note that those games which were not successful did teach things to the programmers who created them. The level of gameplay has steadily advanced. Those who rail at the AI lack should try to create an AI which does the job. It isn't as easy as it looks. And if we in the programmer community could really create something so much better it would be in there, you bet.

yes, like i said its a *****, no game has a REALLY good AI.

Remember that all game development is a trade-off between better code and the money which that code must generate. I do NOT rail at the game developers. It's their bread and butter we're talking about. I think if they COULD do so much better they WOULD.

best point ive heard yet, but Crativision could have done MUCH better, there just lazy asses

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by splangy
ya? well if ctps AI can beat you thats pretty sad...

Normally this comment would never hurt me but this morning while playing my own mod it now does.

I was in a continent with arabians (west), Native Americans (east) and the purple one(south). I was the persians playng at very hard and the most dificult Barbarians. The only guy that were causing me problems were the barbarians killing my Nomads(settlers) and explorers units (spearmans), i used to had a nice relationship with the N. Americans. But in 960BC one of my 6 cities Ashur (size 4) was attacked by the purple guy with a stack of 8 units (H.swordman and Bowmans) and they conquer it. They moved the whole stack out of the city leaving just a H.swordman and conquered my biggest city of Parsagadae (size 8). My patrol stack wich included ( the Elite Chariot*, Archers and Swordsman) did not had a chance against a such advanced enemy.

When i thought the thing was already hard the N. Americans attacked two of my cities and conquered those too. Another city i do not remeber the name was conquered by the the Purple and the N. American reconquered. I got Infantry Tactics and updated( i have unit updater) my spearmans to Phalanx but it costed all my money. At that point i had settle another city and reformed a new stack. I re-conquered Ashur back what gave me a feat of +1 happiness to all cities.
The arabians arrived and conquered Parsagadae from the Purple.

End of story: i have now three cities two size one (Ashur and the new one)and My Capitol Persepolis is size 11 wich 5 are war slaves This mean that i cant get the units out. No stack to counter attack. My land became a Battle field with armies from the Arabians, Native Americans and the Purple where the last two are my enemies. And totally out of money.

Conclusion: I am dead. I could try to resist (i am about to discover Iron Workink wich will grant me with H. Sordsman) a litle more since now they are ignoring me and attacking each other. But my cities a far apart since Parsagadae was right in the center of my lands what dificults me to group a new army. It is just a matter of time before they kill me.

From that experience i decided to make my mod public what you are going to see in a couple of days. Sorry about such a long post but this was such a renovating experience. I just had to tell someone.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Pedrunn


Normally this comment would never hurt me but this morning while playing my own mod it now does.

I was in a continent with arabians (west), Native Americans (east) and the purple one(south). I was the persians playng at very hard and the most dificult Barbarians. The only guy that were causing me problems were the barbarians killing my Nomads(settlers) and explorers units (spearmans), i used to had a nice relationship with the N. Americans. But in 960BC one of my 6 cities Ashur (size 4) was attacked by the purple guy with a stack of 8 units (H.swordman and Bowmans) and they conquer it. They moved the whole stack out of the city leaving just a H.swordman and conquered my biggest city of Parsagadae (size 8). My patrol stack wich included ( the Elite Chariot*, Archers and Swordsman) did not had a chance against a such advanced enemy.

When i thought the thing was already hard the N. Americans attacked two of my cities and conquered those too. Another city i do not remeber the name was conquered by the the Purple and the N. American reconquered. I got Infantry Tactics and updated( i have unit updater) my spearmans to Phalanx but it costed all my money. At that point i had settle another city and reformed a new stack. I re-conquered Ashur back what gave me a feat of +1 happiness to all cities.
The arabians arrived and conquered Parsagadae from the Purple.

End of story: i have now three cities two size one (Ashur and the new one)and My Capitol Persepolis is size 11 wich 5 are war slaves This mean that i cant get the units out. No stack to counter attack. My land became a Battle field with armies from the Arabians, Native Americans and the Purple where the last two are my enemies. And totally out of money.

Conclusion: I am dead. I could try to resist (i am about to discover Iron Workink wich will grant me with H. Sordsman) a litle more since now they are ignoring me and attacking each other. But my cities a far apart since Parsagadae was right in the center of my lands what dificults me to group a new army. It is just a matter of time before they kill me.

From that experience i decided to make my mod public what you are going to see in a couple of days. Sorry about such a long post but this was such a renovating experience. I just had to tell someone.

well ive had that happen to me in civ2, its just a coincidence

[Immortal Wombat]

So to summarise:

• 1. CtP2 shouldn't have had to be modded
• 2. The Civ2 and CtP2 AIs are both lame
• 3. Activision suck
• 4. No-one knows how good Civ3 will be
• 5. Most issues where Civ is better than CtP, are preferencial things
• 6. We're all going to buy Civ3 anyway
• 7. I reserve my final judgement until mid-January.

[Dale]

Splangy:

ya? well if ctps AI can beat you thats pretty sad...

Your comment has no relevance to my point about the Civ3 AI becoming useless in the sense that everyone will get used to it and find ways to beat it. Hmmm....... that's similar to the Civ2 AI. Oh, and CTP1's AI. Oh yeah, and CTP2's AI!

excuse me but do you own the game? no! well than stop acting like you do!

No, I don't own Civ3........ YET. And why? Because it's not out yet. And for the EXACT same reason, how can you keep going on as if Civ3 is God's gift to man? No one knows what it's going to be like. Oh, and don't throw "But Sid is writing it!" at me. He's had some really good games, and some really bad games. Saying that would prove an infantile point on your behalf.

are you a fortune teller? I find it intresting how you haven't (couldn't have if your saying this) looked at civ3, but already can say it sucks.

I'm not "fortune telling", I'm basing my comments on the current trends. EG. Civ2 outa the box needs modding to make Diety harder (I can beat it easily). CTP1 outa the box needs modding to make Impossible harder (I can beat it easily). SMAC/SMAX outa the box needs modding to make Diety harder (I can beat it easily). CTP2 outa the box needs modding to make Impossible harder (I can beat it easily). Why is it unreasonable to say that Civ3 outa the box will need modding to make Diety harder?

Haven't look at Civ3? I'm well into Civ3:
- From THIS thread, 10-08-2001 15:59

Just finished reading civ3.com. Very interesting reading in there.

- I'm on the Firaxis Civ3 mailing list.
- I regularly read through the ACS Civ3 forums.
- I infrequently post in the ACS Civ3 forums.
- I kept up-to-date on http://www.firaxis.com/civ3 site.
- I'll be waiting in line with everyone else to pick up a copy when it's released.

Not "looked" at Civ3? I'm WELL into Civ3!

[splangy]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
So to summarise:

• 1. CtP2 shouldn't have had to be modded
• 2. The Civ2 and CtP2 AIs are both lame
• 3. Activision suck
• 4. No-one knows how good Civ3 will be
• 5. Most issues where Civ is better than CtP, are preferencial things
• 6. We're all going to buy Civ3 anyway
• 7. I reserve my final judgement until mid-January.

ya, thats about right

[splangy]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Dale

Your comment has no relevance to my point about the Civ3 AI becoming useless in the sense that everyone will get used to it and find ways to beat it. Hmmm....... that's similar to the Civ2 AI. Oh, and CTP1's AI. Oh yeah, and CTP2's AI!

im just saying thats what happens to all games, its human nature to study your enemy and learn its weak points

No, I don't own Civ3........ YET. And why? Because it's not out yet. And for the EXACT same reason, how can you keep going on as if Civ3 is God's gift to man? No one knows what it's going to be like. Oh, and don't throw "But Sid is writing it!" at me. He's had some really good games, and some really bad games. Saying that would prove an infantile point on your behalf.

sid isn't writing it dumbass, and im not saying its gods gift to man, you just seem to make completly unsupported remarks about a game that isn't out yet.

I'm not "fortune telling", I'm basing my comments on the current trends. EG. Civ2 outa the box needs modding to make Diety harder (I can beat it easily). CTP1 outa the box needs modding to make Impossible harder (I can beat it easily). SMAC/SMAX outa the box needs modding to make Diety harder (I can beat it easily). CTP2 outa the box needs modding to make Impossible harder (I can beat it easily). Why is it unreasonable to say that Civ3 outa the box will need modding to make Diety harder?

and when did i say it was gona be harder??

Haven't look at Civ3? I'm well into Civ3:
- From THIS thread, 10-08-2001 15:59

- I'm on the Firaxis Civ3 mailing list.
- I regularly read through the ACS Civ3 forums.
- I infrequently post in the ACS Civ3 forums.
- I kept up-to-date on http://www.firaxis.com/civ3 site.
- I'll be waiting in line with everyone else to pick up a copy when it's released.

Not "looked" at Civ3? I'm WELL into Civ3!

1- point being?? you can get all that info on the site
2- your saying that you follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like, thats not all that helpful
3- WOW! i meen, you must know everything now
4- and that helps you info' wise, how??

basically-
1, 2, 3, 4. are the same thing, you only need to do one
5- is errelevent

so by now were back we we started

[Dale]

im just saying thats what happens to all games, its human nature to study your enemy and learn its weak points

Not all games. SSI has a good reputation for an AI that stands the test and provides continuously difficult games to master. Take Imperialism 2 for example.

-----------------------------

sid isn't writing it dumbass, and im not saying its gods gift to man, you just seem to make completly unsupported remarks about a game that isn't out yet.

I know Sid's not writing it. Hence why I said not to throw it at me. You do seem to believe Civ3 is God's gift to man. You are pinning all your hopes and wishes on a sequal to a fantastic game (Civ2) and won't accept the point that some of us in the world actually enjoy CTP2 and believe it stands on it's own as a good game. Aside from the fact that a LOT of sequals are crap! And my remarks are based on "current trends" as I mentioned in my post. Read it! "Current trends" are universally recognised in debates as supporting evidence.

------------------------

and when did i say it was gona be harder??

This is the basis of the entire thread! If the game is harder then gameplay value is higher, continually playing the game to beat the AI makes the game have higher repeat-play, and the challenge to win is more fun!

--------------------------

1- point being?? you can get all that info on the site
2- your saying that you follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like, thats not all that helpful
3- WOW! i meen, you must know everything now
4- and that helps you info' wise, how??

basically-
1, 2, 3, 4. are the same thing, you only need to do one
5- is errelevent

If you had actually READ what you wrote then you would've picked up that I was showing that I HAVE looked at Civ3. See your own comments......

I find it intresting how you haven't (couldn't have if your saying this) looked at civ3

On point 2: You say that I "follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like"? So Firaxis don't know what their own game is like? You crack me up.

[Dale]

My god! I'm argueing vehemently with a 13 year old still at school who wouldn't have done full-scale debating yet. That would explain all the holes in the rebutals. Maybe I shouldn't be too rough on him then.


Woops.