The Best: Civ3 or CTP2?

[Dale]

Just finished reading civ3.com. Very interesting reading in there. A lot of people said "CTP is just a ripoff of Civ2." After reading what will be in Civ3 you could almost say that Civ3 is a ripoff of CTP2.

1. Units support from national pool, not from city built in. (CTP started it)
2. Stacked combat. (CTP started it)
3. Centralised trade system, no more caravans. (CTP started it)
4. Diplomacy bargaining table, multiple requests in a proposal. (CTP started it)
5. Borders. (CTP started it)
6. Special units. (CTP started it)

Just a comment. Besides, you can't compare two games when one isn't even out. We don't know what the AI will be like, we don't know the final terrain graphics, we don't know a LOT about Civ3 yet.

I reserve judgement.

[rooboy]

1. Very good point Dale.
2. Ditto.
3. Yep.
4. Oui.
5. Ja.
6. Once again, you guessed it, yes. I don't recall bombarding cities in previous games.

Here's something else for everyone to ponder: Nothing's perfect!

[splangy]

Originally posted by Dale
Just finished reading civ3.com. Very interesting reading in there. A lot of people said "CTP is just a ripoff of Civ2." After reading what will be in Civ3 you could almost say that Civ3 is a ripoff of CTP2.

1. Units support from national pool, not from city built in. (CTP started it)
2. Stacked combat. (CTP started it)
3. Centralised trade system, no more caravans. (CTP started it)
4. Diplomacy bargaining table, multiple requests in a proposal. (CTP started it)
5. Borders. (CTP started it)
6. Special units. (CTP started it)

Just a comment. Besides, you can't compare two games when one isn't even out. We don't know what the AI will be like, we don't know the final terrain graphics, we don't know a LOT about Civ3 yet.

I reserve judgement.

1 ohh gee, you really expect them to stick to the anchient way of support?
2 again, this HAD to be in for the game to even contend
3 what? you had to build caravans in ctp, in civ there is no build of caravans
4 another thing that the game had to have to contend, plus civ 3's will be very deep and real.
5 borders are a direct tye to culture, thus they did NOT take it from ctp.
6 what? ctp has no unique units. every civ can build the lawyer. in civ3 its civ specific units.

do you guys realise that in other forum we joke about ctp like, "what if civ3 had as many bugs as ctp? would we have to mod it to the point were non of its original code existed as well?"
. im just saying this becouse, while ctp2 is already out there wont be a ctp 3 (as said by activision) thers a chance for a civ4 thou... maybe you should try to convert so in the end theres somthing to look forward to.

ps- i got the civ3 combat info of the preveiw site (the old one), from interveiws, and were they were mentioned in more than one reveiw.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by splangy

do you guys realise that in other forum we joke about ctp like, "what if civ3 had as many bugs as ctp? would we have to mod it to the point were non of its original code existed as well?"
. im just saying this becouse, while ctp2 is already out there wont be a ctp 3 (as said by activision) thers a chance for a civ4 thou... maybe you should try to convert so in the end theres somthing to look forward to.

ps- i got the civ3 combat info of the preveiw site (the old one), from interveiws, and were they were mentioned in more than one reveiw.

And it is to joke about what activison did was a terrible job. But the modders work on that because they saw a lot of potential in the game and it does have it. That is what Dale was trying to show you. CTP has a lot of great ideas and even will civ3 use some of them. See your aswers again, most of them is telling how civ3 is going to inprove this ideas and that is exactly what the modders made and are making.

Still i do not think this info is official since like you said it is a old preview. It wasnt one of them that said about the only 7 civ in the game?

[Pedrunn]

You said good points during are debate. And i must say you almost changed my mind. But i am still sticked with CTP2 to 2 major things.

1) Future.

2) Special Units ( slaver, cleric, abolitionist, lawer...)

And others things that arent confirmed by Firaxis yet. And could change with future informations.

1)Stacked combat

2)Good Graphics (specially terrain)

[Der PH]

Today I looked into civ3.com and I have to say: Looks very nice!
I've always missed the city view since Civ1 (The view in Civ2 was terrible) and the graphics they show in the screenshot gallery look very promising.

But graphics are not everything!
Gameplay will determine, with which game I'm going to waste my precious spare time in the future.

[BRA_TiTaN]

The only thing that I want of innovations in them is:

A way of you can use a base of government's system and to alter the details.
A market / trade more efficient and well more complicated and more lucrative, after all, nowadays everything wheel in the market.
But progresses for the modern and future age, and who knows to create progresses for the future.

And besides cities, to name mayors, it would be legal, for instance, if you activate the mayors, the counselors or Congress, he should say that the people want for the empire. If they want war, or development in the cities, more wages, or tie more employments.

And should have a system of counselors more advanced, and detailed.

It would be cool, you can place names in continents, world conventions of military, diplomats and environmentalist.
Besides cities, you could also create, or to name, areas, provinces and states of your empire.

A thing that would be more legal, is to give more emphasis to the capital of the state.
Or to name rural cities / industrial / military cities.

[BRA_TiTaN]

Economic is the KEY!

I think should create like this.

Inside of government's systems. There would be a specialization
Example:

Democracy / Virtual / Military / Economical / it Informs.
Republic / Parliamentary / Presidential / Monarchic / Soldierly
Socialism / Communism / Liberal / Military / Closed

Besides the Military Governments that many in ours historize, mainly of Latin America and Europe, they were good governments with great economy.

Besides governments' system, it should create the economical systems.
Liberal / Closed / Exporter / Importer / Protectionism and so many others that exist today.

He you should give but emphasis to the external market and much more for the intern.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Der PH

But graphics are not everything!
Gameplay will determine, with which game I'm going to waste my precious spare time in the future.

The Gameplay? That is mostly what we are discussing here.

I went to civ3.com and i became more optmistic about the graphics of it, anyway.

[Bluevoss]

Something I haven't read here yet, and it counts as another plus of CTP2 over CIV2: The fact that within a reasonable period of time (say, by 1500AD) you have a pretty good idea of what the world looks like.

This is really important. In CIV2, I'd end up sailing about in a nuclear carrier, sending out my planes on mapping runs to find out where the oceans ran. Nothing like a modern navy out looking for the northwest passage. Further, the only way to see the map was to send your military romping through it.

In CTP2, I can send out a good number of non-military units (slavers, nobles, etc) which are fairly cheap (so I'm not losing too much by building a few extra for "Marco Poloing". Further, countries are pretty easy (especially when you get big) about exchanging maps. Like tonight - I went to war with the Greeks - they were originally pretty small (three cities) and I smoked two of them. When they asked for a cease fire, I asked for a map. The granted it. Well, it turns out a greek noble had been wandering about for years in lands I had no idea of. That was rather cool, to see a big portion of the map light up.

Anyway, just my 2 cents...

[Az]

Bra_Titan : well not exactly as you've pointed out , but Social Engineering like would be sweet.

as pointed out numerous time here , you can't compare anything with something you don't know almost anything about . Well yes , many things have been published , including on this magnificent site , but still , noone of us hasn't played the game so....

[Locutus]

Well, the way it looks right now, every civ player will have to ask [him|her]self the following question: "Would I rather play a really, really good Civ2.5 or do I want a slightly buggy and problematic Civ3?". In the first case you should play Civ3, in the second case CtP2 + MedMod (or Cradle). Personally I think I will like modded CtP2 better but that won't stop me from buying and playing Civ3 as well...

[Peter Triggs]

The thing I'd really like to know about CIV3 is "How modifiable will it be?" I haven't seen any info about what text files will be accessible or, even more importantly, what sort of programming language will it come equipped with. Has anybody?

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
The thing I'd really like to know about CIV3 is "How modifiable will it be?" I haven't seen any info about what text files will be accessible or, even more importantly, what sort of programming language will it come equipped with. Has anybody?

That is a major point. Probably someone will make a civ3 Mod to play in the future(and also probably taking CTP2 advances and units into it).
That way I will really consider buying it.

[Locutus]

Yes, that is indeed a major point and unfortunately Firaxis doesn't have a very good reputation in this area. Making a scenario editor that easily allows players to add new units and advances and to make a map is one thing (and I'm sure they'll get that right) but making a scripting language or other advanced tools or text files that will allow some of the stuff CtP can do (edit the AI, edit the UI, SLIC, etc), is something different entirely. The fact that we haven't heard anything about this sort of thing yet makes me fear for the worst...