Tentative Project - Part Three

[TheLimey]

Agreed Diodorus... but...

1) I can't see any way of introducing the lack of technical improvement idea
2) Diplomatically, it doesn't matter if everyone hates you if you have a supersize empire *IF* we haven't found a way to even out the game (see the other stuff at the top of the thread)
3) Slave revolts were and are a danger, however, the gain in production from the slaves ofsets the production cost of the garrison.

All you can do is slow it down...

[TheLimey]

Agreed Diodorus... but...

1) I can't see any way of introducing the lack of technical improvement idea
2) Diplomatically, it doesn't matter if everyone hates you if you have a supersize empire *IF* we haven't found a way to even out the game (see the other stuff at the top of the thread)
3) Slave revolts were and are a danger, however, the gain in production from the slaves ofsets the production cost of the garrison.

All you can do is slow it down...

[TheLimey]

Agreed Diodorus... but...

1) I can't see any way of introducing the lack of technical improvement idea
2) Diplomatically, it doesn't matter if everyone hates you if you have a supersize empire *IF* we haven't found a way to even out the game (see the other stuff at the top of the thread)
3) Slave revolts were and are a danger, however, the gain in production from the slaves ofsets the production cost of the garrison.

All you can do is slow it down...

[TheLimey]

Agreed Diodorus... but...

1) I can't see any way of introducing the lack of technical improvement idea
2) Diplomatically, it doesn't matter if everyone hates you if you have a supersize empire *IF* we haven't found a way to even out the game (see the other stuff at the top of the thread)
3) Slave revolts were and are a danger, however, the gain in production from the slaves ofsets the production cost of the garrison.

All you can do is slow it down...

[Depp]

1. All great ancient cities grew up around rivers. So lets make rivers more important.
2. Transportation is very important. Maybe roads/railroads/maglevs should increase food production even more ? I mean, they don´t increase the food produced but they help getting it into the city right ? Just a small bonus maybe.
3. If one could make the cities radius to be dependent on both size and the transportation avaivible that would be very neat. Maybe with SLIC 2, who knows (where is that documentation??? .
4. And to make all this possible without cities getting tons of food, the food gained from an tile with no improvement should be cut considerably.

Elucidus: I share your concern that this must not affect the fun of the game, but I think it will surely enhance it, since it will take more to get a great city, and hence not all cities will be alike.

Diodorus Sicilus: Can you post your changes here in the forum ? I would love to see what you are doing. I havn´t got enought time to delve into this matters right now, my graduation project is in a busy phase right now. But I could surly be used to discuss the pros and cons of an idea.

I don´t know if there is any way to know in SLIC if there is a road or anything between cities, but the trade system seem to be using the movement points it takes to move between to cities to determin the number of caravans it takes to establish a trade route. So there might be a way...

Thanks for sharing my concern.
/Jocke

[WesW]

In his mod, CD lowered the number of slaves that a unit suppressed from 3 to 2, which was a good change.
In the Med mod, I raised the amount of food they consumed, and make them consume wages as well.
In ctp2, I don't believe that slaves consume *any* food.
I just checked the pop.txt, and slaves are not listed in it like they were in ctp1, so I am not sure right now how to adjust these settings.
I also eliminated the production effect of rivers, to try and reduce the unbalancing effect of that resource.

As far as the AI's reluctance to attack, I found in the strategies.txt that the goal for defense was higher than that for attack for all AI types. I have reversed this for militaristic types, and I may change it for other types later.
From what I can tell from ctp1, the AI will not attack if it can't build a stack more powerful than your stack, even if it has other stacks to throw at you. This will be something else to look at as we become more familiar with the game.

As far as the rich getting richer, I think it was Gedrin who set all wonders to give -1 happiness. I didn't try this in the med mod I, but I might try it in the med mod II.

As far as unit settings, I am going to set them to what they were in the med mod I, as far as increases from one age to the next. We will have to see as far as production and upkeep settings.
I will probably increase the effect of city walls as well. I need for someone to run some game tests to try and gage their effectiveness under the current settings, and figure out what they need to be raised to.

[WesW]

In his mod, CD lowered the number of slaves that a unit suppressed from 3 to 2, which was a good change.
In the Med mod, I raised the amount of food they consumed, and make them consume wages as well.
In ctp2, I don't believe that slaves consume *any* food.
I just checked the pop.txt, and slaves are not listed in it like they were in ctp1, so I am not sure right now how to adjust these settings.
I also eliminated the production effect of rivers, to try and reduce the unbalancing effect of that resource.

As far as the AI's reluctance to attack, I found in the strategies.txt that the goal for defense was higher than that for attack for all AI types. I have reversed this for militaristic types, and I may change it for other types later.
From what I can tell from ctp1, the AI will not attack if it can't build a stack more powerful than your stack, even if it has other stacks to throw at you. This will be something else to look at as we become more familiar with the game.

As far as the rich getting richer, I think it was Gedrin who set all wonders to give -1 happiness. I didn't try this in the med mod I, but I might try it in the med mod II.

As far as unit settings, I am going to set them to what they were in the med mod I, as far as increases from one age to the next. We will have to see as far as production and upkeep settings.
I will probably increase the effect of city walls as well. I need for someone to run some game tests to try and gage their effectiveness under the current settings, and figure out what they need to be raised to.

[WesW]

In his mod, CD lowered the number of slaves that a unit suppressed from 3 to 2, which was a good change.
In the Med mod, I raised the amount of food they consumed, and make them consume wages as well.
In ctp2, I don't believe that slaves consume *any* food.
I just checked the pop.txt, and slaves are not listed in it like they were in ctp1, so I am not sure right now how to adjust these settings.
I also eliminated the production effect of rivers, to try and reduce the unbalancing effect of that resource.

As far as the AI's reluctance to attack, I found in the strategies.txt that the goal for defense was higher than that for attack for all AI types. I have reversed this for militaristic types, and I may change it for other types later.
From what I can tell from ctp1, the AI will not attack if it can't build a stack more powerful than your stack, even if it has other stacks to throw at you. This will be something else to look at as we become more familiar with the game.

As far as the rich getting richer, I think it was Gedrin who set all wonders to give -1 happiness. I didn't try this in the med mod I, but I might try it in the med mod II.

As far as unit settings, I am going to set them to what they were in the med mod I, as far as increases from one age to the next. We will have to see as far as production and upkeep settings.
I will probably increase the effect of city walls as well. I need for someone to run some game tests to try and gage their effectiveness under the current settings, and figure out what they need to be raised to.

[WesW]

In his mod, CD lowered the number of slaves that a unit suppressed from 3 to 2, which was a good change.
In the Med mod, I raised the amount of food they consumed, and make them consume wages as well.
In ctp2, I don't believe that slaves consume *any* food.
I just checked the pop.txt, and slaves are not listed in it like they were in ctp1, so I am not sure right now how to adjust these settings.
I also eliminated the production effect of rivers, to try and reduce the unbalancing effect of that resource.

As far as the AI's reluctance to attack, I found in the strategies.txt that the goal for defense was higher than that for attack for all AI types. I have reversed this for militaristic types, and I may change it for other types later.
From what I can tell from ctp1, the AI will not attack if it can't build a stack more powerful than your stack, even if it has other stacks to throw at you. This will be something else to look at as we become more familiar with the game.

As far as the rich getting richer, I think it was Gedrin who set all wonders to give -1 happiness. I didn't try this in the med mod I, but I might try it in the med mod II.

As far as unit settings, I am going to set them to what they were in the med mod I, as far as increases from one age to the next. We will have to see as far as production and upkeep settings.
I will probably increase the effect of city walls as well. I need for someone to run some game tests to try and gage their effectiveness under the current settings, and figure out what they need to be raised to.

[colorme]

Wes,

Can your mod also address the following concern of mine (deals with AI dumbness),
https://<a href="http://apolyton.net...?12</a> <br />

From another post of yours, you seemed to know how to get into the game code and hack it (rather than simply change the AI data files).

[colorme]

Wes,

I tried increasing GOAL_SEIGE priority ten-fold. It didn't help one bit (BTW, GOAL_ATTACK is probably not the right thing to modify because that controls how the AI attacks UNITS. GOAL_SEIGE seems to control the attacking of CITIES).

Regarding your comment on AI not attacking until it has a stack better than yours, I think that's not accurate (at least in CTP2 it seems). Lots of folks have commented how it throws 2/3 units at you. Also, it often has a strong army of 12 dispersed a few tiles from each other. It doesn't seem to be able to combine them. And if an attack force has to be transported across water, we can forget about that. The game doesn't have the intelligence to do that.

I believe the bigger problem is that while defense is easy (ExecuteIncrementally ), offense is hard
(RallyFirst ). And the latter piece of AI seems to be still-born in this game. I doubt you'll be able to improve that (For those who've not checked yet, the above flags are part of the aidata/goals file.)

But if you do, I'll be one happy camper

OK, I've spent the Thanksgiving break fretting over the game. Time to move on in life!

BTW, where's MarkG's review?? Wonder if he'll agree with my observations
Mark, did you postpone your review because you realised how crappy the AI is ?

[colorme]

Wes,

I tried increasing GOAL_SEIGE priority ten-fold. It didn't help one bit (BTW, GOAL_ATTACK is probably not the right thing to modify because that controls how the AI attacks UNITS. GOAL_SEIGE seems to control the attacking of CITIES).

Regarding your comment on AI not attacking until it has a stack better than yours, I think that's not accurate (at least in CTP2 it seems). Lots of folks have commented how it throws 2/3 units at you. Also, it often has a strong army of 12 dispersed a few tiles from each other. It doesn't seem to be able to combine them. And if an attack force has to be transported across water, we can forget about that. The game doesn't have the intelligence to do that.

I believe the bigger problem is that while defense is easy (ExecuteIncrementally ), offense is hard
(RallyFirst ). And the latter piece of AI seems to be still-born in this game. I doubt you'll be able to improve that (For those who've not checked yet, the above flags are part of the aidata/goals file.)

But if you do, I'll be one happy camper

OK, I've spent the Thanksgiving break fretting over the game. Time to move on in life!

BTW, where's MarkG's review?? Wonder if he'll agree with my observations
Mark, did you postpone your review because you realised how crappy the AI is ?

[colorme]

Wes,

I tried increasing GOAL_SEIGE priority ten-fold. It didn't help one bit (BTW, GOAL_ATTACK is probably not the right thing to modify because that controls how the AI attacks UNITS. GOAL_SEIGE seems to control the attacking of CITIES).

Regarding your comment on AI not attacking until it has a stack better than yours, I think that's not accurate (at least in CTP2 it seems). Lots of folks have commented how it throws 2/3 units at you. Also, it often has a strong army of 12 dispersed a few tiles from each other. It doesn't seem to be able to combine them. And if an attack force has to be transported across water, we can forget about that. The game doesn't have the intelligence to do that.

I believe the bigger problem is that while defense is easy (ExecuteIncrementally ), offense is hard
(RallyFirst ). And the latter piece of AI seems to be still-born in this game. I doubt you'll be able to improve that (For those who've not checked yet, the above flags are part of the aidata/goals file.)

But if you do, I'll be one happy camper

OK, I've spent the Thanksgiving break fretting over the game. Time to move on in life!

BTW, where's MarkG's review?? Wonder if he'll agree with my observations
Mark, did you postpone your review because you realised how crappy the AI is ?

[colorme]

Wes,

I tried increasing GOAL_SEIGE priority ten-fold. It didn't help one bit (BTW, GOAL_ATTACK is probably not the right thing to modify because that controls how the AI attacks UNITS. GOAL_SEIGE seems to control the attacking of CITIES).

Regarding your comment on AI not attacking until it has a stack better than yours, I think that's not accurate (at least in CTP2 it seems). Lots of folks have commented how it throws 2/3 units at you. Also, it often has a strong army of 12 dispersed a few tiles from each other. It doesn't seem to be able to combine them. And if an attack force has to be transported across water, we can forget about that. The game doesn't have the intelligence to do that.

I believe the bigger problem is that while defense is easy (ExecuteIncrementally ), offense is hard
(RallyFirst ). And the latter piece of AI seems to be still-born in this game. I doubt you'll be able to improve that (For those who've not checked yet, the above flags are part of the aidata/goals file.)

But if you do, I'll be one happy camper

OK, I've spent the Thanksgiving break fretting over the game. Time to move on in life!

BTW, where's MarkG's review?? Wonder if he'll agree with my observations
Mark, did you postpone your review because you realised how crappy the AI is ?

[WesW]

From what games I have played, cities in rough terrain didn't grow well at all without help, unless they had beaches to support them. We'll see...

As you may or may not know, the const.txt contains all kinds of flags for map creation, slider settings, unit bonuses, city settings, bombard and pollution settings and effects, plus all the special attack settings.
The flags are placed in an almost random order, however. So, I just spent about 30 min. grouping them in four general areas:
1)Map creation
2)Unit, city and pollution
3)Special attack
4)Unused ctp1 flags

I will post the file soon at my website. I have made some changes to bring the file in line with the Med mod I, but I think any mod-maker would be happy to use this file, since it makes finding things much easier.

Also, I have made it possible for Spies and Cyber Ninjas to Sue and be Sued, and for Clerics, Abolishionists, and Slavers to be Sued.
This gives you a way of killing those units without going to war with their owning nation. I wish I had thought of this a long time ago.

Sorry, colorme, but I don't know how to do any hacking.
I tried to tackle some of the same problems you mentioned in that thread in ctp1, with limited success. About all you can do is play with the "goals" settings in the strategies.txt. That should have some effect.
Also, I am re-working the AI's unit build lists, which has a lot to do with what units the AI is producing (or not producing).
As bad as it seems, if you could watch the ai moves in any of the Sid games, I bet you would see the same types of things, if not worse. I know that the AIs do a much, much better job of growing and developing their cities, and from my limited perusing of the diplomatic files, it seems that those are pretty involved as well.
In playing and now searching the text files in depth, I can see that the people at Activision were not wasting their time since the release of Ctp1. Whether they were given all the manpower and resources that they needed might be up for discussion, however.